It's amazing what's happening with Amway. I firstbecame a distributor in 1980 and only this year choose not to re-new. It's about time something is finally being done to make Amway enforce its own rules. When I started I did something that shocked my upline, I RETAILED PRODUCTS! I was told to stop. Next, my "sponsoring" phase started. If Amway is so good, why did it take talking to 50 to 100 people to sponsor one? Then the fun begins, I got to tell that new person that all he had to do was talk to 50 to 100 people and MAYBEhe'll sponsor one! What a great business! I asked my upline Diamond once if he would do a meeting for me. He said "No".
I once heard on a tape that a blind dog with a sign could "Go Direct". Well, I'm not blind and I'm not a dog but I did put an Amway sign in my car. Real nice, cost a few bucks but heck, I was going to make money. My phone hasn't rang once yet. I quit waiting.
If the Amway business was so good, anyone who got involved would have no problem finding one person each month to sponsor and so on. The facts, as you excellentl point out, do not support this. I had asked about the 10-Customer Rule long ago and was told that "It didn't matter".
Amway programmed people would say that "I didn't follow the system" or "I didn't understand the Plan" or some other such nonsense. To that I say "Baloney!" I did and followed everything "The System" taught. (The System I used was from Brian Hays but from what I have seen in your page and others, they are all the same.)
I challenge any Amway distributor to tell me why there are more ex- distributors than current ones and please, don't give me any of those Pre- programmed answers. (I know them all.)
I have always liked the idea of selling soap and have currently found a few companies that market soap products to the water conditioning industry. It may sound amazing but the price I pay for these products is 60% of the retail. THIS IS WHOLESALE PURCHASING! I am actually selling these products at retail and am making an excellent PROFIT!
I'm tired of Amway people telling me that I'm afraid to work or to work hard. My only regret is that I wasted a lot of time in Amway. Keep up the good work on getting the facts out to people.
> First off, thanks for your comments.
>> Cost of an item in a store is more than what is paid at the
>> cash register due to transportation costs and time. I know those
>> would be "fuzzy" numbers.
> Not sure what you mean here. The retail price paid for an item would
> include all transportation costs, otherwise the store is selling the
> product for a loss. Could you be more specific?
Maybe you're familiar with the term "Total Cost of Ownership". What I meant to say is that the real cost to purchase an item is what you pay (price, tax, etc.) PLUS the cost of making the transaction (driving to the store, etc.) The reason that is so fuzzy is that there is no set transaction cost. For example, I am just about to walk out the door to drive to the other side of town for an errand. I will pass a bank along the way so I can stop in to get cash. However, I still have to use the gas, accumulate wear on my car, take three hours, etc. in order to get to the other side of town. So...the ability to order from a catalog can actually provide a lower total cost even though the item price may (at first glimpse) appear to be higher. Granted, some items in the catalog aren't the best deal on a comparison of purchase price. But, suppose you have a take home income of $1600 per month. Further, suppose you only work 40 hours per week (let's leave out transportation time, overtime, etc. for this calculation.) That means you earn $10 per hour. So...if you have to drive 30 minutes to get to a store, you need to add at least $10 to the cost of the item, plus gas, plus time spent in the store, etc. Does that clear up my point a little better?
>> Your examination of the 6-4-2 plan is a little off. 10 growing legs
>> is not for a DD but for a growing Diamond who should have at least 32
>> sponsored legs (6-6-8-6-6.)
> I have not only heard this on tapes within the Britt system (don't
> remember the actual tape numbers) but have also received several email
> from distributors who call this building the business smart.
I am fully aware that there has been some confusion on this point. I also gather from your site that you are on the West Coast. My understanding is that the West Coast does things a little differently than we do. However, a direct with 10 active legs doesn't fit the numbers. What seems to happen is that messages on tapes or from stage are targetted at specific audiences but received by others as well. I know what the Duncan's teach. I also know what they mean. It's just not time effective for a direct to have 10 growing legs and that's not what's taught. What is taught is sponsor 12 to get 3-4 legs to work depth, 3-4 will quit and 3-4 will watch (0-100 PV per month.) That yields 6-8 legs that stay of which 3-4 are active. The issue is one of short term vs. long term income. Ten short legs can create a somewhat significant income for their sponsor. However, the time commitment is ridiculous. Most organizations (no matter what size) have three big legs and they usually come out of the first 12 legs sponsored.
The same confusion comes in when people do the mental math of contacting. To illustrate: I just moved to NC a few months ago and didn't know anybody here. So what I have to do is meet people, a percentage of those people will get involved. Let's assume that number is 1 out of 20 or so people I talk with (Some end up being bad contacts, some only look good, etc.) So at 1-2 people met per day that means I should sponsor 1-2 per month. Seems a little slow doesn't it? But...draw that out for 6 months and let's assume I then have 9 legs in a relatively short period of time. The psychological effect on them and me is that the organization is growing. So...now others start showing the plan and the growth of the organization takes on better-than linear growth characteristics.
What also happens is that the legs grow at different rates. Most people who are Emeralds have more than three directs in their groups, right? So...the SA-4400 shows a mathematically minimal organization. By the time a person achieves the diamond structure, at least one of those legs and probably 2-3 have multiple direct distributors in them which increases the volume for beyond 6x7500.
Does that make sense?
>> Also, of the three "growing" legs for a DD they should be
>> around 4000,2500 and 1500 points each. The other three legs should be
>> assumed to be about 100 PV. I think those will give you numbers closer to
>> $2000 per month.
> No it doesn't. I have an example on my 6-4-2 page that shows a dd with
> this kind of structure and the net income, after paying bonuses, is
> $1,106. Get your sa4400 out and work the numbers. It ain't hard.
Did you add par bonus and profit sharing? I didn't check you math that in depth. You're correct in that a minimal direct probably won't make $2000 per month. However, the numbers that get talked about are for solid businesses, not surge volume like could happen in November due to Christmas shopping.
>> You didn't count for the return policy of the catalog items.
> I mention Amway's return policy in a couple of places and call it the
> biggest "pro" on the "Buying from your own store" page.
Sorry. I missed that.
>> Artistry and Nutrilite have the best return on cost. Don't know why
>> you didn't pick the example of a food bar a day, XX, a fruit squeeze
>> and a couple other things that escape me right now.
> First off since I am a man, I didn't want to get involved in any
> artistry conversations. Second, all the products I compared were found
> at the grocery store I normally go to buy consumables. They really
> don't have any products that could compare to artistry. I would have
> had to gone to a department store to find brand names that would
> compare to it.
I'm a single man and I use some of the skin care products. Agreed, I don't use makeup. But I'm aware that other do, preferably females. My point was the food items are a notoriously bad return and that is widely discussed. Again, what is stressed is the consumption of items with the highest return. I travel a lot and take a bunch of vitamins. While I don't buy a lot of food, I do clean my house and person. When it comes down to a dollar or two difference, that difference is irrelevant due to the cost of obtaining the item. Also, the higher income a person has or the greater their time commitments, the greater the cut from traveling to a store. A married couple with kids and a combined income of $75K per year has time that is in shorter demand and more "valuable" than that of a single male amking $20K per year. (Just numbers I pulled out of the air to make the point.)
> If you had looked at my Health/fitness page, you will see that I have
> comparisons for the food bars, fruit squeeze, Harvest 12, Positrim,
> along with a few of the vitamins. I would have had to have gone to a
> health food store or a GNC to find a food supplement that could even
> come close to the vitamin content of xx.
>> So what you're saying is that it was inconvenient for you to do
>> complete research so you purposefully chose those items which you know
>> have a low return? That's not a fair comparison.
>> I guess there's only two possibilities: 1. You were purposefully picking a
>> difficult product mix
> Nope...I randomly selected products that I thought I could find a
> comparable product in the grocery store. I selected the Amway products
> first (not really knowing what the price was at the store) and then
> added 10-15 minutes a trip to the grocery store finding the prices to
> the comparable products. I did not drop any just because Amway's price
> was lower.
Every time I've done that the Amway products are cheaper per use 80-90% of the time, even at retail prices. Granted, I live in suburb of Charlotte. I have a cousin who lived in El Paso and tried showing the plan to people making $15K per year. Of course that didn't work. Those people make sucha low income because of the way they think.
> It would be great if I had the time to compare every consumable
> product that Amway offers, but I don't. If you have some products that
> you think should be included, let me know the sku's and I'll see what
> I can do about adding them. But it must be something I can buy at a
> grocery store. I don't want to be travelling to several retail outlets
> to find comparable products.
>> $800 a month for travel and associated expenses
>> (phone, babysitters, etc.) really isnt that much. Just to keep my
>> consulting business going I run up a couple of thousand dollars a
>> month.
> It was not my intent to say they don't deserve the 4% shipping charge
> they pocket, but to inform people they are keeping it rather than
> sending it on to Amway. This fact was never made clear in the 5 years
> I was associated with Britt. It was alway's referred to as the "Amway"
> shipping charge...not the "dd" shipping charge.
I've never heard that. Whose group were you in? Zeender?
I placed an order yesterday with teh warehouse witht he following totals:
PV 80.40
BV 193.00
TX 13.98
SH 7.59
Total 211.37
So what Amway charged was tax of $13.98 and shipping/handling of $7.59 on an order of just about $200. That looks a lot like 4% to me. You are partially correct. The main problem, and this is not usnique to Amway, is that taxes have to be paid at different levels. There are 50 states, who knows how many counties and cities have different tax rates? It was a real mess. We're just now getting to the point that the ability to administer computing capability to keep up with that is viable on the scale of the Amway business (let's assume 800,000 distributorships in the U.S.) Then add in all the different tax rates and exemptions and it's a real mess. This is not an issue that is specific to Amway. You may recall a few years ago the attempt by states to charge sales tax on items purchased by mail or phone from another state and shipped in.
You may also be interested to know that Amway has now opened up ordering over secure internet to directs and above. As time goes on, that will be expanded to everyone. Since Amway tracks and administers the prices, special prices and tax liability for all the areas they are in, it only stands to reason this will be automatically handled during order placement soon enough.
>> Your statements that Britt teaches NOT to have customers is untrue.
> What page are you referring to? Once again that was not my intent. The
> Britt organization (and Yager for that matter) don't adequately teach
> the Retail Sales Requirement to earn a performance bonus. Can you tell
> me of any tape or document produced by the Britt organization that
> eaches people that, according to Amway's Rules and Regulations, they
> must make 10 customer sales or sell 50pv to any number of retail
> customers to earn their performance bonus? If you can, I would
> appreciate knowing what they are. I still have a few contacts in the
> Britt organization that I could get a copy of the tape/document.
Easy, any tape that deals with the ten core points. Launching your Future booklet. The rules are changed anyway. I'm not sure what happened. that 10 customer requirement came out fo the FTC investigation almost 20 years ago. My understanding is that it isn't a legal requirement to that to be RETAIL sales. Oh....that changes things doesn't it?
All things considered, you site does seem to have a much more fair assessment than, say the shwartz site. He seems more concerned with muck raking and doesn't catch on to things like the Forbes article from about ten years ago was printed in amagazine supported by advertising dollars from Amway's competitors. Duh. I do think you line by line analysis of the corporate statement about internet comes a little too close to mud-slinging. A 1/2 page letter about something as influential and vast as the internet and the change it is bringing to our society obviously can't address every issue in depth, nor should it. The fact remains, also, that there ARE people actively slandering the corporation on the internet.
>> My understanding is that it isn't a legal requirement
>> to that to be RETAIL sales. Oh....that changes things
>> doesn't it?
> (this was toward the end...but I want to address it first)
> It sure would....can you tell me where your understanding comes from?
> Amway Business Compendium? Amagram? FTC Ruling? Where? Probably your
> upline told ya..right?
No, Charles. Believe it or not I'm a very competant businessman who owns more than one successful company. In a statement from Amway Corporation in the Amagram sometime last year the announcement was made that the requirement was changed from a minimum number of customers per month to a minimum PV volume requirement to be eligible for bonuses. If I remember correctly, the limit is 50 PV. Asking the question is one thing. Your last sentance is sniping
> I would encourage you to check Rule 104 & 105 of your business
> compendium. These rules state that customer sales *are* a requirement
> to earn a pv check, and the Jan 97 Amagram *changed* this rule to
> state that 10 customer sales *or* 50pv to any number of customers is
> needed to earn a performance bonus. Please note what Amway's..not your
> uplines...rules say *should* happen if you fail to meet this
> requirement. Darn...that changes things doesn't it?
When a wholesaler sells to another wholesaler that IS a sale. A customer is a customer.
> Logic dictates that if Amway or the FTC did away with this requirement
> before Jan 97, Amway would not have printed this rule change.
> Therefore if it has been eliminated....when did it happen? Surely if
> it's happened within the past year, you or your upline should know
> exactly when. I haven't heard anything.
See above. I'm not particularly interested in the exact date.
>> "Total Cost of Ownership".
> Ahhh....the old "YouHaveToAddTheCostOfMyDrivingToTheStore"
> concept...yeah I'm familar with it. Amway distributors are the only
> people I have ever heard use this excuse (including myself while I was
> a distributr). Do you apply this principle to every activity in your
> life?
That's not an excuse in any way, shape or form. It applies to virtually any activity or acquisition in any business. For example: the Quill office supply catalogs that many businesses use to order pencils, paper, etc. from have higher prices than the same merchandise bought at, say, Wal-Mart. But the cost to acquire the merchandise includes not only the merchandise, but also the time (wages) of sending somebody to get the stuff plus the loss of productivity that person could generate elsewhere.
Yes, I do look at total cost. I'd be an idiot not to. Example: I don't wash and iron my dress shirts. I take them to a cleaner. Does it cost me more in immediate money to have that done than lauder them myself? Yes, it does. But the time is more important to me. If I spend time doing something that I can pay somebody else to do so I can use that same time in a more productive manner, I will.
Previous question, Charles: Have you ever owned a financially successful company?
> You mentioned that you did a comparison where Amway's products were
> 80-90% cheaper per use. What products did you compare? I have yet to
> find any products where that is true and I am truly interested in
> putting those product comparisons on my page.
I don't believe I made such a blanket statement. If I did, it was a mistake. I do remember thinking about the difference between Windex and See Spray as I typed that. The last comparison I did was in November of last year and consisted of about ten items. See attachment at retail prices. Expanding the comparison to wholesale prices, even without bonuses, will widen the difference a little more.
> One final thing on products....what do you think should be added to
> make this a fair comparison? If you'll share your thoughts about
> this..I'll add it...but the whole sa-13 is not an acceptable answer :)
I don't know how to answer that question. It's not really that simple a comparison. For example, I bought a pair of shoes from the catalog, they didn't fit well and I put them in the box to return. I put it on a shelf and forgot about it for over a year. 13 months later I sent them back to Amway and the money was completely refunded. How do you put a dollar value on that? I've returned a number of things and it's been more convenient for me. The current packing lists for catalog items include a pre-paid postage mailer to make sending thangs back easier. Every year Amway publishes the results of a comparison between their catalog prices and 4 or five other large mail-order operations. At one time I looked into it and found out that the catalogs they choose to compare with are the top non-computer mail order operations in the US.
How do I put a dollar value on the intangible changes in my lifestyle? For that manner, how do I put a value on the tangible ones?
>> The same confusion comes in when people do the mental math of contacting.
> Math has nothing to do with it. What matters is
> results. How many people have *you* sponsored in the
> past few months?
Math has nothing to do with it? What???? You're statement concerning results is true, in and of itself, but confuses quantity with quality. You could interview hundreds or people with no ambition and sponsor none of them. You could interview 50 people who have high self-esteem and high productivity and you'll probably sponsor quite a few. There's more to an equation then the right side, the left side needs to have the proper numbers.
None, I've moved 500 miles and spent almost three weeks of every month travelling out of the state/country because one of my other businesses exploded. Such is life. I think I've only shown the plan 5-10 times since moving in August. I can't really expect any decent results from that, can I?
>> Did you add par bonus and profit sharing?
> Nope....and neither does the $2,138 in the 6-4-2 :)
I've lost track of what this was about of where it was going.
> If you actually read what I said on that page, you would know that I'm
I did at about 2 in the morning. I didn't study it.
> SA-4400 is a better source of showing the actual $$ paid to
> dd's..which was $1,352/month in fiscal year 95 per last year's
> sa4400...oh and this was gross income not net after paying downline
> bonuses and subtracting expenses.
Don't have a copy of the SA-4400 with me. Can only assume that number is an average income which would include (for calculation purposes) those DDs who don't have any appreciable volume of their own. Those would be folks who are one or two-legged, etc. Can't know what the SA-4400 says until I get home.
> btw- you went quite in depth about the number of growing legs etc. I
> really wish you would *read* what I put on my web-site before
I did read that part.
> greater your income. I've heard several high-level distributors talk
> about building the business "smart" and having 10 growing legs at the
> Direct Distributor level.
That's what I was referring to. That's why I thought you were on the West Coast. In the Puryear organization there is heavy emphasis on immediate width comprised of growing legs. Bill and the East Coast guys say that doesn't make sense. The same thing puzzled me for a while until I heard Bill explicitly state that 10 growing legs should be the goal after reaching direct. That was being confused with 10 growing legs to go direct.
> It has nothing to do with which group I was in....it's
Again, I thought you were on the West Coast and Bob has a large group there. To some extent it does matter which group you were in because they teach different things.
> Directs are entitled to one *free* shipment from Amway. So the dd's
> who are still practicing "product pickup" at their house, are
> pocketing that 4%. It's only the non-direct wod's that pay that 4%
> shipping to Amway.
> I wasn't even aware of this until a reader pointed it out last year.
I didn't even think about that.
> Amway does product documentation with a wealth of information in
> it...all it takes is for people to read it...but that's detailitis
> isn't it? Or is that your upline would rather you not *know* all the
> rules and regulations that you *should* be following.
Sniping again.
Actually, I don't really see where this stream of e-mails is going. I think in a few areas we had fundamentally different viewpoints.
First, let me start out by saying that your site is one of the best content oriented site I have come across. Are you a professional researcher? I am studying for my Master's Degree in Management Science and currently in my Research course...I have to say I think I learned more from you than I am my book...well, it is a good site anyway.
My story. I was introduced to the business as a teenager. Before I joined the service I hade numbers of 20 to 40 tapes and have had a few people hit direct levels, but couldn't tell you where they are now. I am a Communications Officer in the Army and spent two years overseas. I am now back in the states and considering stepping back into the business. I still have an organization, which is something that I must say is a strength of the business. I literally quit for two years and still received small bonuses....should I discount that? Your opinion?
Finally, I want to say that even after years in the business, I was unaware of the tape and function bonuses..although I always suspected. After my courses in accounting, management, and strategic planning, I see your point. It is legitimate.
So, here is my question for you..
1. Why do you keep this site? What are you motives for such time/money? I am not bashing, but sincerely interested. If it is advertising revenue from your number of hits, I fully support you. I am just interested.
I do not make any money from advertising revenue. The freebie counter that I use does
2. Do you have any advice for me? Is there something better? The Amway business does have many advantages...infact the only reason I am considering stepping aside is what has to be considered unethical if not illegal profit from training materials. I don't know if I can sell them with a conscience.
Now.. I would like to go on to say that my training in leadership, influence, and organizational dynamics from Amway is without value. I have nothing but top 10% reviews in my professional career. My parents gave me the ability, but honestly, Amway gave me the skills. The training I received, and am attracted to continue to receive, is worth more than my bachalor's and master's degree. I sincerely believe that. Amway taught me to dream, believe, and win. That also needs to be given its merit.
So, in recap, please answer my questions, and feel free to post this letter. I would be interested in seeing your replies to this on your site in the letters area!
Anticipating your reply,
(Please do not post my name)
My daughter and son-n-law are in Amway. Recently I found out that she went to her distributor to ask permission to change jobs. This is a normal request to get permission before changing employment's? I see all the things that you talk about happening in their lives. They have been in Amway now for four years. They haven't got any one under them, yet are out every night trying to recruit people. They are two young people struggling to make ends meet. In my eyes they are throwing away so much time and effort. Can you give me a clue on what I could do to make them realize they need to quite chasing the end of the rainbow.
A frustrated but concerned Mother.
Hi. Like your page.
I just wrote a letter to the FTC about Amway and their wicked practices.
However, I would suggest also putting the Names and Addresses for the News Organizations that you list on that page. It would really help people send letters faster so as not everyone has to repeatedly search for the address over and over again.
I also think highlighting the e-mail addresses to the FTC would also help. Maybe putting a hyper link just like your e-mail address has one.
Perhaps you can make a page that already has the Address of the FTC and all users have to do is put their name and address and type in a form box their comments. Then click a button and if you know CGI or something to that effect another page comes up that is properly formated. Then all the user has to do is print the page and send it off to the FTC. The FTC will get 60 Written letter very fast.
p.s. Your web page is good. If you just have the things listed above incorporated into your page it will only make things a lot easier for people to take action. Isn't that what the Internet can do, make information easier to get. The point is to make as easy as possible for users to send something to wherever they want. Example .... this e-mail for instance.
I have heard many times that you become a motivation addict in the Amway business. What people that are not in commission sales jobs don't know, understand or maybe don't want to understand is that all sales orginizations have motivational as well as informitive seminars on a regular basis.
As far as the expense of keeping up to date on this information Amway is a bargain.
I am a full time real estate agent and do well enough to support my family. Last year I attended classes as well as seminars designed to inform as well as motivate me in my career.
The cost of all this training is in the thousands. Add to this office expenses and advertising. Well you add it up and you will see that Amway is a bargain.
This business is not for everyone, just like real estate is not for everyone. Every year there are thousands of people that get liscenced in our state to sell real estate and every year thousand of people quit real estate yet no one condemns this business. Yes, people do get involved in Amway and then quit but they are usually the ones that thaught they would get in and become rich over night. Amway, like other sale businesses take time, effort, training and the right attitude to make work.
If you keep that in mind when you get started you will succeed. If not you will be another sad, bitter "I tried that once" story.
I have not been able to view all of the pages on this site but from what I have seen so far it is no doubt to me that you are very unaware of what it takes to suceed in sales of any kind. Maybe for your next project you can check into the divorce rate among Realtors and the expense associated with running a successful real estate office.
While working out in a weight room, a friend, actually now "just someone I know", said hello to me. We talked about out mutual interests in exercising and I told him I might be moving of town to look for a job and that I do web pages. We started chatting about it more and that he thought I might the guy that he was looking for. He, guy A, we will call him now, said that he was in the import/export business and as I knew him he was from another country. Well, he started asking me if I had heard of Amway. And I said yes. Well a flag went up as I thought it sold soap and that he is some stupid business. He then went on to say that he wasn't in Amway but this new company called, Brit International, which he said was similar. (I am thinking, "Brit", sounds like "Britain", British people are somewhat formal and thus this maybe a decent business.) So, I am thinking he needs to set up a web page then for Amway, I mean Brit. Well so what if he wants to sell soap, I would be happy to make his pages then, I mean all they do is sell soap. He then got some other guy, who we will call guy B, there who I accidently met about 15 minute early by helping him adjust a weight the setting on the flat bench press. What a coincidence!
Well, we started talking and I started to ask him, guy B, some questions about the web and how and what he used to make them. I sort of assumed he knew what he was doing, and I unwittingly asked him some questions that he could have easily answered. Like, "Do you use "so and so" to make your web pages, and he said yes and that he can make web pages in 5 minutes. I though he was really good then. He also said that he got a domain name, can't remember what it was though. And that he was about to start up his own business that I was led to believe needed a web programmer like me to help sell web space and that he knew all about setting up something similar to an ISP. Well, then he goes and said that he wants us all to get together to have meeting so we can talk and discuss how we are going to start a web business or something to that nature. And that there is a meeting scheduled the next day. Lucky me!
Well, I decided to ask more questions about this meeting that he said he thought I should go to. He said that there would be this guy who knew everything and that he already knew him. I asked what are we going to talk about and if this guy was any good. He said yes and that speaker does this all the time helping people set up web businesses and Internet Stuff. What ???? Is this what I first was presented with ???? Hmmmmm. Now it sounds like some seminar we are going to. I am thinking well maybe this guy B needs to get more advice and help setting up a web business or that he is just looking for more ideas. So I am suspecting something, but I say well he is a college student and maybe needs a little help in starting a new business. So they tell me they are getting together to car pool in front of some dorms. And that it is a bunch of guys going. Whoaaahhhh!! Now there are a bunch of guys going. Well, I said to myself that the Web is getting popular and that this is just more guys. "So what.", I said. Well Guy A says to me that most of the guys are going to dress nice as this was a business. I ask him where the meeting is going to be and he said some place in the city. So where is it I ask, and guy A says he is not sure but the guys are meeting tomorrow in front of the dorms know and that if will be free ride. So I say to myself what the heck, why not car pool so I can know who I might work with later a little better. (Remember this section about car pooling, its used to increase the time to influence new guys)
Well the next day, I go and dress nice and drive to the University and meet some of the guys in front of the dorm. We talk and we find out they know a friend of mine who works for the University and that they are doing something later that week. Well I ask him what his major was and he said it something in business or undecided. It sounded like whenever I asked that question to any students that I had met that night that their major was a cross between two major or undecided but never a Computer Science major as I though should be the most likely especially when trying to start and Internet Business. Guy B then asks the driver who the speaker was tonight, and he says so and so. Guy B says, Oh, he very good. I am thinking to myself, "very good", what's that supposed to mean? I thought you never listened to this guy ever and if you did why am I going here, why not just tell me what he said since we are trying to be in business together.
Well sure enough we get to some new public library in the city. We all go in and new guys have to sign up and say who sponsored them here. I get some ticket for free and I go in. The place is packed. And all of us from the University sit on one row, there are about 7-10 us of if I can remember correctly. Only me and this girl are new from what I can tell. At least that's what I think. Then some other guys sit to the right of me. This guy will turn out to really annoying.
Well the meeting starts and it sounds like a lot of people have been to this meeting as by the statements made by the 1st speaker. I am little surprised. Well we start off by hearing that we all want to make money and that the only way to do that is "own your own business". You have to be in the "system". You also want to retire early and you don't want to work forever. In fact if you listen to then you can start your own business by only 10-15 hours a week. The Main speaker, makes joke, joke, gung ho shout, gung ho shout, cheer lead rhyme, cheer lead rhyme after another. The crowd laughs as hard as it can and says YESSSS and as loud as it can. In fact the guy sitting to the right of me, besides using his little bottle of breath freshener every 5 minutes, laughs so hard, my right ear starts to really hurt, and I am not exaggerating.
During this brain washing, I mean meeting, I see Guy B taking notes. Why is he taking notes? Didn't he imply in the car that he had been to these meeting before and that he has already heard this guy speak. I look at what he is writing down and it's the main points of the meeting. What ????? Has Guy B already forgotten what he has learned at the previous meetings? What about the other people around him? Wowww , there are a lot of people taking notes here. I was never told to bring a notepad. And from how everyone knows when to laugh and applause it seems that a lot of guys have been here. How can they all of them be taking notes ? Do they forget the main point of this weekly meeting they covers the same thing over and over again. Like money back guarantee, 6-4-2, Brit International, 10-15 hours per week, Fortune 500 Companies,
Well, at the end of the meeting people who have been in Amway, excuse me, Brit International, are asked to stand up. First, guys who make around $200/month, $500, $1000, $2000, $5000, $10000 and so on, if I can remember correctly. There were around 30% at $200 and good number at $2000 and only 2 couples at the highest level that came stood up. I was surprised to see that Guy A who I thought I knew sort of so-so made $2000/month. Pretty good I said to myself, that is being able to lie and get away with it. So the meeting is over and although some people can't understand it, the speakers says that you should a schedule a meeting with the guy who brought you here so that you can fully get this system. Well, that was the end of the Rocky Horror Picture Show ( for those of you who don't know, ... The Rocky Horror Picture Show is where the same people go to see the same movie every other weekend and know the story line so well that they yell the same cheers at certain scenes and do stuff like flick their cigarette lighter and throw rice all at the same time and other silly things.)
After the meeting was over, I was asked what I thought by the guys who brought me here. I said that I could see what I could do to make their web pages. They look dumbfounded when I said that. Well we drive back to the dorms and I manage to talk to guy A. I said something to the effect that, Do you want a web page or what?" And he said, "Don't you understand, you can make a lot more money this way?" Well that was that as I didn't want to damage what relationship we had left, I mean, I might see the guy A in the weight room again. And it was until the next semester I again saw Guy A in the Weight room. I met him again and he immediately brought up the subject about Amway. He said that he was sorry and that some people don't particularly like those meetings. No Duhhhhhh. I really didn't want to talk to him whatsoever as I knew I had been suckered. Guy A also said that Amway already had a web page. (Hint. They don't need me.) I politely tried to change the subject as I didn't want to really let this guy know what I thing. (A few weeks later in the weight room again, I met another friend of guy A and we briefly talked about the meeting. As we talked I mention that I felt that I had the word, "Sucker" written on my forehead. He immediately said that he was in Amway. Uh Oh!!! Well we just stopped talking right there. Although I have once talked to him again, at little more friendly this time, absolutely no Amway talk.)
A month or 2 later, I found out a friend or mine joined Amway. I should have known better because while I was in the car going to the Amway meeting, the driver mentioned that they should also speak to my friend about Amway. At the time I didn't care as I didn't know how bad Amway really was, I mean all they sell was soap. Well as soon as I found out my friend joined, I immediately began to tell him what had happened to me. He defended Amway in any way he could and said that guy A's lying was just only a mistake. Well an argument ensued. Later that week, my friend told me that he had did some checking on the WWW and that he was looking more deeply into Amway. He Still doesn't seem to want to admit that he is wrong though.
Well, I don't need to tell you anything more than what you can already find on the Internet. I believe that most of the Anti-Amway pages are true as I can't believe the amount of time and info that is on these pages was just put there to only make someone look bad. ( I know, because its takes a long time to make web pages.) I also am surprised that people just like me, that were approached by some acquaintance they knew about starting some business, like doing contract work with computers, were also suckered like me. And with the same method as I was. I fortunately didn't buy anything.
My opinion is that Amway are targeting college students as they are young and naive. I also think that this is also going on at other colleges in the city , state, and national level. I believe they look for bright young students to help them with their business and bam they get suckered into an Amway indoctrination meeting. After reading the Anti web pages, I see that it included doctors as well, who are trying to sucker people. Not to mention a lot of professional with College degrees that told a little about their background at the end of the Amway meeting.
Nevertheless, I also think that a proper response is needed in order to expose these MLM for what they really are, as I think some of the explanations used to show the foolishness of MLM and Amway are hard to understand and the that general public become confused. Below are some of the things that can be used to bring out the truth on MLM's.
1. Like trying to explain how a pyramid scheme works or how it can't work This is what really needs to be hammered into all consumers brains out there. And it needs to be presented in a way where anyone can understand it. I would say that if one guy were to try to get 10 persons in a month and so on that after the first month, you should be receiving $10 a month. And if those 10 guys can get 10 persons a month to join then you will have a 100 people each paying you $1 dollar after the 2 nd month thus giving you $100 a month after the 2 nd month. Well after the 3rd month you should be getting $1000 and on the 4th month you should be getting $10,000 and on the 5th month $100,000 and on the 6th month $1,000,000. On the 7th is $10 million and the 8th will get you $100 million/month , and on the 9th month about $1 billion, and on the 10th month, $10 billion and on the 11th month, Wallahhh, $100 billion per month. And at the end of the year every Amway person can be making at least 1 Trillion Dollars a year! That's more than Bill Gates!!!!!
2. As you can see you can just go through the explanations for only 2 -3 month and end up telling the dollar figure for 11th month. And to hit the point home go on with the one Trillion number and the Bill Gates reference.
3. Well that how I think it should be illustrated because once they say they can't get 10 people in a month they start to see how hard it is. They will also see how hard it will be for those 10 people to get their 10 people. And for that matter Amway has been in existence since the year 1949. Hmmmmmm. Almost 50 years to make $100 Billion, that's with a "B".
4. You need to respond better to those Amway distributors who say, " At least I am on Hawaii sitting on the beach and you're still working yourself to death." Well, I am sure con artists, Drug dealers, and OJ Simpson are also sitting on the beach with you Amway distributors. Or another clever response like, "Why don't you tell the drug dealers, "Hello" while you are out there?"
5. "It will only take a 10-15 hours a week." Yea right! That's what you say at the beginning of your meetings and then when you have your distributors (the guys who really think they make the money) stand up and give their person tesitmony that the "Amway System" work and then say , "It's like anything else, you get what you put in, you have to work hard at it." WAIT!!! Didn't you just say it was only 10-15 hours a week at the beginning of the meeting ?????
6. Alert the University Presidents and College Campus newspapers about the Amway Scam. Let the Business Professors be on the front pages of these papers explaining the flaw of the pyramid scheme and the LOOPHOLE MLM's use to separate themselves from pyramid schemes. That is MLM's are a hybrid of the pyramid scheme because they sell products with their memberships so as not to be accused of only selling memberships as pyramid schemes to. It should be something to the effect of, "MLM's got around the law banning pyramid schemes by just having the distributors sell a few products so as to avoid being accused of only trying to recruit members.
7. Amway doesn't sell products, it recruits and brainwashes members with video tapes and self motivation books and marketing lies.
8. The only soap that Amway sells is the kind that brain "WASHES" people . Amway is a cult or at least cleverly disguised cult, IMO.
9. I heard from one Lawyer friend of mine that the GOP and Republican activists have a high number of Amway people like 40%. And they are all instantly alerted with sophisticated FAX services and their answering machines are left messages by some computerized service with sophisticated calling list as to who should be called and to what political functions they should to go to. It also amazes me that Amway distributors are just like a lot of TV Evangelists when that stand for the truth and pretend to be good church members. They justify themselves by saying, " I can really help my church out with this new income.", while they lie, lie, lie their way for more money from their friends. It should also be wise to see how much political donation come from Amway distributors or private contributors connected to Amway. As far as I am concerned, don't be surprised where the money comes from and where it goes. Follow the money. The Media, Democrats and GOP alike. And definitely watch your back, remember what happened to the Proctor and Gamble CEO some years back and remember who won that lawsuit for defamation and libel.
10. What really concerns me is that Amway is teaching and trying to justify to your friends to lie and cheat to their families and friends all in the name of "it the cost to do business". They only approach contacts they have actually have at least a first name basis, person reference or relationship, and so aren't' really caught. Amway doesn't pay for advertising because they know what will happen. Amway also knows that families and friends are forgiving and hope it will go away.
11. Amway's business seems to be going down as they now, from a web page, because they are offering a money back guarantee since Sept 1997. From what I can read on the Internet, Amway has also been harassing Anti-Amway web pages because they are very detailed in their accounts. Amway doesn't tell you their legal history, but these web pages will. It seems from my first glance that for every Amway page there is an Anti-Amway page. Amway distributors are willing to just plain willing to tell a lie by acting like their are offering contract job work to students or whoever to start a new business. This tells me that things are getting tough for Amway Distributors, and so we can expect more lies and creative scams just to get people to come to the meetings. They also say well each Amway distributor is his own boss and that group over there is really bad, but our group is honest and straightforward. YEA RIGHT! That's what the "other group" said about you guys. They don't want to go out of business. Nevertheless, with the Internet here, one guy can post on Usenet and send Amway packing.
12. Amway distributers also try to justify themselves by saying they are just like any other business, one CEO and employees at the bottom. Wrong! Other business pay their employees first, they do not ask them to pay their own salary. Also, Amway profits by stealing money from their employees by brain washing them to buy motivational and marketing video tapes and books, not actually selling something to customers. As I read on one web page, Other business have money coming from outside the company whereas Amway has money only coming from it's employees, i.e. Indendent Salesmen and distributors.
13. Someone should just take an Advertisment out in USA Today or something just to tell people to search the word "amway" on Yahoo. And check out the Anti-Amway sites. This should avoid a lawsuit, hopefully, from Amway.
Well, that pretty much is the story, a few things left out, but all these thing that happened to me have already be mentioned by others that tell their story on web pages. Doing a search on Yahoo with the word, "amway" and looking for Anti-Amway Opinion sites. Also try looking up "multi level marketing". It seems it is a matter of getting the word out in a simple fashion without getting sued. Then again the Church of Scientology sues anything negative. I guess it takes something to stand up to this kind of evil. I myself ask that question as I send you this very letter, but then again someone had to stand up to the tobacco companies after all these years.
Anon
- Don't want to be sued by Amway for exercising my right to free speech
I think that you should research Amway before you spread more false information on Amway. For instance, the Old Amway Vs. the New Amway. The Old Amway just use to care Amway Core products. The New Amway carries products and services from other companies. Just take a look at the Amway Personal Shopper, and you will see all the products and services that Amway carries. The have clothing, furniture, personal care products, baby care products. Services they provide are FTD, MCI long distance, an Amway Visa care, they have a Motor Plan, you can get prices on vehicles, and can purchase a vehicle through the program for a lot less than what the dealerships actually charge, and finance for the vehicles.
If you had this kind of information, you would not be going out and spreading rumors that you can not prove are true, especially if you have not be in. And if you were ever in, you probably were not in long enough to get the true information.
you answered all the questions i had during my 5 years of time-intensive, money-sucking activity - the inconsistencies between the fine print and the verbal teachings always bugged me, but of course such questions were about as welcome as a jehovah's witness asking for a blood transfusion - any valid business opportunity will stand up to detailed scrutiny; i believe you've more than proved that amway/network marketing does not - thanks for making this tool available - unfortunately, i suspect those distributors in the brainwash/rookie stage of development would simply ignore it as "negative" - well, learning the hard way always leave a stronger impression
My father is in ScAmway. I have been patiant with him. But, he doesn't see what this thing really is. Before I decided to look this crap up, I wrote a 10 page theme about my speculations about this business. Now, in only one day, I find that all of my theroies are true. Amway sucks so bad. If anybody who reads this is thinking about getting into Amway, DO NOT DO IT, YOU WILL BECOME BROKE AND LIVE IN A TRAILER!!! These people have manipulated my father into thinking that one day he will have money coming out of his ears. They will do the same to you. Read the information in this site, it will give you the truth. ScAmway reps only lie. If any of you top Amway exec.'s decide to read this, here is a little message for you. F**K YOU! You BASTARDS made my dad broke. Yeah you DON WILSON, DEXTER YAGER, I hate both of you with a pasion. You might be suprised to know that I am only a 15 year old high schooler. Thank you for reading this. Now go back to this site and see what Amway is about.
I appreciate your reply.
The one point I want to talk about is the book and tape function money. There are a few reasons that this is unethical - (The irony in this is that 'Ethics in business' is an elective in my program, which I choose to avoid!)
1. Money generated from books and tapes are set up on a continual basis, and with no end user in mind. This _MAY_ be considered an annuity or security, which would require a liscence from which to earn an income.
2. This profit is not presented as a part of the plan.
3. This profit is not outlined in a contract, but done on a wink and nod type of business.
I consider myself fairly influencial, and drove some people damn near to the poor house on these things. Now, flip the coin. One couple is going profit sharing this year, they are very thankful....the others...I don't know. They won't talk to me! Just kidding...but I seriously don't know either way.
Hmmmm.....scratching my head.
Thanks for the feedback.
Personal Question: Do you run a homebased business now?
It is 3:30 in the morning. I've just spent the last 4 hours going over your site. I age with alot, but also understand that there are 2 sides to every story. I guess I just want to believe that the Amway business will work for me.
My sponsor put it well: "You know that the business works, you just don't know if it will work for you." He's right. The only time I've really been serious about building my business was this past January. I sponsored a couple of people and got really excited. But reality has started to hit.
I don't want to get into the whole long story. I just have a question. If not the Amway business, what now? I know of some things I'd like to try, but I am so programmed against a "traditional business" that I'm skeptical about anything else working. What are you doing, now? Any suggestions?
Charles - I didn't have time to go through your entire site (Ive got a seminar to go to tonight), but I did browse a bit. I don't know who your upline diamond was, but from what I can tell, you weren't treated well by the people in your organization. I'm sorry for that. I am not a diamond, not even a direct, but My experience with the Amway business has been mostly positive. Sure, there are some warts, and yes, there are some jerks - but you're going to find warts and jerks everywhere. There IS a lot of good stuff about the Amway business, and I'm sorry you had an experience that made you bitter. That's not what we're about.
I have just discovered this site after signing up to be a distributor about 3 weeks now. I am reading these personal stories and just wanting to laugh because it is like all these sponsors or uplines memorize the same book like a bible and live by it when they are recruiting people in the "business." I was told at the beginning that i could get my $150 back, that there really was no risk at all. do you think this is true? Because i am very disappointed that it is not at all what i thought it would be. for example I wanted to buy some raisins for my children, well I had to buy enough to last me a year! i also did not want to spend $15.00 on them at one time. I also think it is crazy that they have to be so secretive about everthing. Amway is like a taboo word. people use it so carefully, that I have even caught myself not wanting to use the word and i don't even know why. Help me try and get out before it is too late!
my name is *, 23 year old australian who just had her second introduction to amway through friend's invitations.
i'm a curious sort of gal & am thoroughly excited about researching this compelling subject through and through. your site is very extensive. i have only read through less than a third of it (but will complete it soon) but there is one thing i would like to know further. forgive me if i am mistaken but i've been trying to ascertain details about you. these do not seem to be revealed in your page.
my personal reasons for having an interest in your profile is that i think it helps in one's digestion of the information you present. for example, though i know how you feel about amway's processes, there is still a part of my mind "but who is this mystery person anyway?" "an old and jaded person with little education" or one of those people amway is always so eager to get to make presentations like "a highly successful doctor/lawyer who gave up their practice to concentrate on their amway business"...forgive me if i am intruding for i know not any better. if i ask of your education background, it is because i'd like to know a person that i might later on choose to support (in relation to views on amway).
as for myself, i am a law student in the process of giving legal studies up for the pursuit of the ultimate inglorious profession, journalism. since this is the second time amway has tapped me on the shoulder (through my friends, both so untypically amway - "typical" in my eyes being middle-aged bored people with nothing better to do...a grave misconception i am sure.), i have decided to get all the relevant facts on this and make own mind up once and for all.
i hope you would not take offence to my probing for none is intended. irregardless of my final conclusion, i have to say now that the internet is truly a great great medium to empower the individual (concededly, the opposite is possible too.) and i thank you for your efforts in presenting the other side of the coin.
I am running into a problem with Amway at a work site where I represent employees as a union employee representative.
A newsletter published buy a "PMA Journal" is being circulated on a regular basis ans is believed to be from Amway, directly or indirectly.
Can you confirm whether there is a connection between the two and which website I can go to where the connection is demonstrated?
I am a new distributor and find your quest to defame this business a great waste of time. If you would put in as much energy to talking to and loving your family instead of wasting your time trying to convert people into a way of thinking which will not give them any value you woulld be fare better off.
If you where a smart man as you are wanting people to think it would be apparent to you that to argue with the people that you feel are less than wise puts you in a position that an onlooker would not be able to tell which of the debaters is the loser.
I hope you have a fullfilling and happy life. Love your children respect your wife and treat other as would have them treat you.
I saw your page and found it very informative. However, I have made money every year for the last 12 and have been profitable for every month since the 3rd one. Do you think I should send the money back that I have earned?
From the looks of you story, it is a good thing you quit. New distributors don't need to follow your example. I hope your next business works out better.
By the way, I curious as to what you motive is. My dad said "find out what a mans motive is and you find out alot about the man"
Your site gets better every time I view it. I just finished reading Jeff Probst's web site...what an excellent web site. He has an incredible amount of credibility with all his documentation. Someone would have to be on drugs to refute his claims!!
While at his web site, I noticed that there is no way to comment on his site. I do have some questions for him. Is there a way to get a hold of him to give feedback? If so, would you be able to supply me with the e-mail or snail mail address?
I have spent quite a bit of time this past month reading you website along with others on amway and have found it to be quite interesting. I was shown the plan by a friend of mine while home for Christmas last December. He lives in Wisconsin and I live in Tennessee. He started me off with a doom and gloom book about how bad the workplace is etc., etc. along with a couple of tapes by I believe Terry Felber. He is in the Worldwide DreamBuilders. Is this a "leg" of Bill Britt or is it someone different. It has been close to three months now and he really hasn't persuded me about signing up at all. Actually I have been the initiator on all occations. I started researching on the web basically because I couldn't find anything out from him. I am suspecting his upline is telling him not to spend his time on a distance recruit. As of now I am still 50-50 on whether to join or not, though right now I am leaning on signing up. Though reading a lot of the "other side" of the business has opened my eyes I believe it will help me beat the amway system. I have no intention of purchasing tapes, videos, etc. or go to functions. I have neither the time or money. I sounds like all they are are big motivational pep rallies. If I am not motivated on my own I won't succeed no matter and if I am why do I need pay to hear some one motivate me when I don't need it. It will be interesting if I join and take this route how much support I will get from my upline. One of the things that intriques me most in the business is the MCI link. Everytime I asked questions on it though my friend always goes back to talking about the "core" products. Yet I read on your "explanation of the work & system income from a Britt distributor" a couple actually made diomond and EDC through the MCI sales. In your experience how was this possible. From what my friend told me all you get for signing up people to MCI is 5 PV and a 1% kickback at the end of the year from your "clients" phone bill. Is the 5 PV a onetime thing or do you get each month. If it a one time thing I have a hard time believing one can do that much PV. It would takes a lot of 5 PV's to make it to the first PV bonus let alone a diamond level. Anyways, thanks for providing a lot of good information on the "other side". If I do decide to join I am planning to run it legit and provide all aspects of the plan, "good and bad". Sorry this letter is so long and I hope you won't mind if I write you in the future if I come up with anymore questions.
When I replied to the above letter I got this....hmmmm
I received this e-mail, and though my e-mail address is on this letter, I did not send the first letter, and I am uncertain who did. Noone SHOULD have access to my e-mail account, and I find it very disturbing that someone has used my account to send other messages. If you get any other messages from my address, please inform me ASAP. Thank you.
There was a name at the end of the first email, which was forwarded to the owner of the account. It was somebody she knew
My husband and I recently let our Amway distributorship expire. Our reason was simple: we finally decided that this was not what we really wanted to do with our lives.
We don't think we will ever regret our experiences as Amway distributors. Yes, we found that we ended up spending much more money on it than we ever saved (we were uncomfortable enough with the way that part of the plan was presented that we made a big deal of it and influenced certain members of our up-line to change their presentation of that information.) Yes, we have several hundred dollars worth of tapes and other business materials in our basement. Yes, we spent money on trips to functions in Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, etc., when we were really counting our pennies. But we found that there were several things we gained from our experience. First, I had always had a very close-minded and negative attitude toward entreprenuership, or, at least, about my ability to take any such risks. I found that I could take more risks than I had thought, and I could, indeed, be an entrepreneur if I wanted. My husband has been delighted in this attitude change, for he has long wished to own his own business, although we've decided our business will not be an Amway business. Second, it forced my husband and I to work together as a team through a very difficult time for us, which really helped solidify our marriage. Third, we ended up learning a lot of good general information and practices about business ownership, which we feel is applicable and will be useful for any venture we may undertake.
Thank you for giving this information to me. I have been asked to be a distributer and now have alot of information to make a sound judgement. Keep up the good work to protect and inform others!
Hi Charles, I really enjoyed the way your site is polite and does an excellent job of presenting what in most ways is the proper "take" on the AMOs and the plan. After I read much of the anti info, I thought about quitting and I thought about trying to have a go at building a business without using the AMO that I'm part of or their tools and using the whole truth good bad and ugly. Instead, I have done nothing except renew to enjoy the distributer cost on the products that I buy. One thing I would like to share is this: many times the prospect is asked what else are you going to do? Here is AN answer. [snipped]