Reader's comments -- Jun 98


I have just been introduced to Amway by my "sponsor" and now I am afraid to get in. I would hate to lie to others and again since I don't fully understand it, I don't know what I will be getting my friends into. I would first, love to understand it; second, communicate it to my friends. But to understand is to do it--communicate it. See I am at a bind. I can't understand it unless I immerse myself into it. For now it's on hold untill I read some more.


Just another quick note to let you know that after reading your email we did call Amway and spoke to their rules and reg department. Becky the lady we spoke to did confrim to us that we may stop SOT anytime and this applies to AMO like ILD. So we did not go to product pick up last Thursday, since the only reason why we were going to do was to pay them 40.00 sum bucks for the SOT. They have not called us to date regarding this.

However, with the info that your friend Doug passed on to us we do not feel so left out in the dark. Thanks a bunch!!!


>
>> Yeah it is Jack D, who heads ILD.
>
> Remember that Jack D. was taught by Ron Puryear and Bill Britt, who
> was taught by Yager. One of the first commandments taught as a
> distributor is "Thou shalt not crossline" The first commandment of an
> ex-distributor is "Thou SHALL crossline." When you do you'll find out
> that 95% of what is taught in these AMO systems is the same. The other
> 5% is fluff. It really was an eye-opener to realize that most of the
> stuff taught in Britt's organization, including WWDB, is exactly the
> same thing that is taught in Yager's organizations.
>
>
>> we will be more than happy to share what we know in a fair manner.
>
> By all means please do so. Remember...Thou SHALL crossline :)
> Especially tools and function costs (hotel opens, seminar/rallies,
> weekend functions, and any other events).
>
>> We were told that it
>> would take about 4 weeks to stop Standing order tape. We figured this is a
>> small price ($6.00 @/40.00) consdering all the other times we spent
>> going to a funtion major or mini rally.
>
>
> I hope you reconsider your position on this. When you got started, you
> probably signed a Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement.
> This document states that you can get off SOT at ANY time. There is
> nothing in that contract that states you HAVE to purchase 4 weeks of
> tapes which you will probably have no use for. Unless you signed some
> other document that states you agreed to purchase 4 weeks of tapes
> after notification that you wish to discontinue, you are under no
> obligation to purchase those four tapes. If he still trys to force
> you, tell the direct that you will contact Amway's Distributor Rules &
> Regulations department (the phone number should be in your SA13) and
> get their opinion on what he's trying to do. Don't just threaten to do
> -- go ahead and actually call them.
>
> Remember if it takes 4 weeks to get *off* SOT, it takes 4 weeks to get
> *on* SOT. Your upline direct can sell those tapes to someone else who
> is just joining, so he's not stuck with tapes he can't used.
>
> Actually, if you wanted to, you can get a partial refund of all the
> tapes you purchased over the past six months and possibly the ticket
> costs of the last function, there is a section in the BSMAA that
> discusses refund policies of tools and function costs. Please read
> that section carefully. If you have any questions, please contact
> Amway's Distributor Rules & Regulations department. DON'T BE AFRAID TO
> CONTACT AMWAY ON THIS MATTER.
>
> It's my opinion that the reason Amway and the ADA board came up with
> the BSMAA is that the lawsuits being filed over the system was
> creating too much negative publicity. But it's a two-edged sword. You
> agree not to sue them, but they agree to a refund policy :)
>
> I don't know how much money you have spent on tools, financially it
> may not be worth the hassle, but it may be worth it to see how the DD
> trys to squirm out of this. Remember both you and your sponsor signed
> a legally binding contract. You have the right to enforce them to live
> up to THEIR end of the agreement. Whether you do is entirely up to you.


My sponser and myself are So. Ca amway distributors. Most of our upline is from florida. Our diamonds are the Klines from Indianna. All of our major functions do require traveling at our expense but I enjoy this opportunity to see new cities. I find the functions very beneficial and educational as well as fun.

I use the system as an educational tool. Tools in the system are not required. They are promoted heavily ....tapes ...books...functions. I believe the system is helpful even though it may have gotten monsterous. I would never advise to invest more then what you could afford.

I've been in the business for one and half years. I'm a direct distributor for 1998, Personally I've sponsered four ( one ruby). Two have quit. I will not quit.

Most people quit and even more say no. It truly is a numbers game. I'ts also a great business and is truly for all people. My mistake this past year was pinworking rather than networking. Working depth more than width. The best way is to build the business with alot of people doing a little. Buy what you normally buy from the core line and teach others to do the same.

I't does work and is very possible if you keep at. I've been very frustrated in contacting and sponsoring. This is where the upline is helpful because everyone in amway started with the same plan and has been just as frustrated but all agree it has been well worth it.


Sir, I read you site with interest and an open mind. I have to say most of the vitriol does not equate with my experience or that of many people i know, including those that have tried Amway and failed or those who seriously hated the experience. I do know that many people fail at most things and tend to blame anything and everything except themselves. Perhaps you are one of these?

I suggest you get a life and do something constructive with it! * (by the way I am not scared of providing my full name - unlike you!)


I just attended a function, more of a recruitment seminar, which was packaged in the form of a business/consulting opportunity. First I was interviewed by someone, for over an hour, very much like a regular job interview. That was the first stage, the next was the seminar which I already mentioned. I had the good fortune to meet some of the "senior partners" in this non MLM consulting business venture. The Main speaker described some things about making money only in the most general terms.

People are divided into teams, where everyone is equal, and they make money, by cutting out the middle men but not by selling, because he said salesmen are not what businesses want anymore, and they earn that money on a residual basis (wouldn't it be great if you didn't have to work anymore) for the rest of their lives (wow!), all the new people were seated at the front (I wonder if it sounds familiar to you). Everyone wore business attire, I guess to give a professional feel.

They didn't use the word amway until the end, and then only to distance themselves. I don't know much of Amway or its practices, this is the first web site I read and I only skimmed, I'm sure I'll find out more once I have a chance to do some more surfing, but any reply would be appreciated......


I just spent about 2 hours reviewing your site. Your site is awesome! I was wondering: how can I get a copy of Amway's 5 year survey? Please let me know


How many documented cases are there of would-be Amway distributors that have committed suicide because they got "suckered-in" by a bunch of cult-following geeks? Think it's time for statistics, folks. One invitation and one meeting is all it took. If I had it to do over again....I would have interrupted the speaker and walked to the front of the group and puked all over his disgusting suit. How did I cope with their jive bullshit 1 1/2 hour propaganda? Ever hear of Fiorinal with Codeine. About 3 of those and you don't give a shit. Alas, the cult-Christians bow to the Jim Jones temple.



> If you have not done so, please read the sections in the Amway
> Business Compendium about what it takes to receive a performance
> bonus. You just described a wholesale buying club .. that is not a
> legal MLM by any stretch of the imagination. The fact is that the FTC
> ruled that amway WAS a legal MLM based on their rules that REQUIRES
> retail sales to customers in order to earn a performance bonus.
>
> Fact is -- virtually every distributor ignores these rules and amway
> has admitted to two reporters (the Advocate article and the one in
> India) that they have absolutely NO WAY to enforce the rules and
> regulations they hide behind.
>
> Finally, don't think you won't be working... if this organization is
> like most (and the way you described it, it is), you'll find most of
> your spare time consumed by contacting, interviewing, and going to
> >meetings/functions. I know they say you can do this business in 5-10
> >hours week, but ask about all the different type of functions and add
> >up the hours yourself.
>

Thanks for your reply. I had no intention of joining, the only reason I didn't walk out after the first few minutes was for the mild entertainment value. It took a turn for the worse at the end though when five or six recent additions told their pathetic sob stories to help win you over. "My grandmother is sick so I can help pay for her care now" or "how can you survive on a fireman's salary" and so on... Thank you again for the reply


I read your site with interest. Here in the UK I have been contacted by a young American guy who has been pressuring me to become involved with Amway. Apart from not liking to be pushed in this way, I was immediately suspicious as he didn't mention the name Amway until the 3rd time he contacted me. After discovering that I was a Christian, he continually made the point that many Amway personnel were of a similar faith, and that the whole organisation was based on Christian principles. The biggest turn-off for me though was the continual implication that I was a loser if I did not want to become fabulously wealthy. In addition, it was implied fairly openly that I was a loser if I did not use all my family and friends as a source of income. Well, I suppose I'd rather be a loser, and sleep at night knowing that I cherish those family and friends for who they are, not what they can do for me. One more interesting thing. Before I discovered anything about Amway or found any of these sites on the Internet, I felt that this was a cultish organisation. The control that Amway people appear the want, and the slavish obedience that is apparently required is really unnerving. The man who has been trying to recruit me says that he will not even pick out his own car without the approval and blessing of his upline couple, and he and his wife consult them on all aspects of their lives. Chiiling!


Could you please give me the exact link to the IRS website that contains information about incomes. I can get to the IRS website, but I am having a hard time finding the exact numbers that you come up with. I don't doubt yours are correct, but I am having a difficult time finding any numbers that show gross incomes. I am in an argument with a distributor that told me only 1,000 people in America make over $1,000,000 a year and 200 of those are in Amway. Thank you in advance for your help,


I have read through a great deal your web site regarding Amway, and as a distributor myself, I have taken offense to certain things. I understand that you have had a negative experience with Amway, and I am not accusing you of lying and actually, I appreciate the fact that there is information available on the internet about Amway, both pro and con.

I just have problems with some comments that you have made. Comments like "They will twist and twist and twist then lie when the statement is TOO OBVIOUS to twist" are not fair to many people out there that are in this business. While I do not have a "Pro-Amway" site, and have little experience with them, it implies that people that believe in the system are liars or stupid.

And I can tell you now that I make a horrible liar, so I make it a personal policy not to lie. And while sometimes I think I may be ignorant, I'd hard;y describe myself as stupid. I guess I'm not even really asking you to change such comments, since I feel everyone has the right to express such opinions whether I agree or not. Perhaps my only words of advice are that such comments seem designed to settle a personal grudge rather than inform people, and information is really what the internet is all about. While I myself have had many questions about system costs, I understand 2 things about Amway that I truly enjoy and that have made this worthwhile. First, I have met a group of people that I can only describe as some of the kindest and supportive people that I have ever met. I am not familiar with the details of your experience, but personally, I know of no business venture available to me where people are as supportive and encouraging.

Secondly, there have been a lot of times when I have questioned whether to quit or not, and mostly I feel that this is due to a lack of information. Tapes have supplied me with the information that I needed to continue, and this info wasn't the Amway "magic bullet" but rather personal information. Motivational tapes such as these cost money, but so do non-Amway related motivational tapes and seminars and lectures. People's time is worth something. Sometimes, people assign a numerical value to this time. This isn't a justification or rationalization of profits from the system. This is not even my upline's opinion. This is my feeling about life in general.

So, I view these system costs as money well spent, if it means my continued involvement with a great group of people and motivational tools that help me feel better. People commonly pay for involvement with organizations that serve similar purposes. Fraternaties and sororities are groups that have a cost but have a group of people behind it and a feeling about it. Even living in a certain neighborhood can return such benefits. It's much cheaper than paying a psychologist. Again, this isn't so much of a rationalization as it is my opinion about life. As to why I got into this business and why I still believe that it will work after your numerous pages dedicated to creating disbelief (as well as others' pages), I trust the people I am involved with. Now you or others might say this is naive, but I believe that it is crazy to live life without trust. The people I am involved with have displayed a great integrity and dedication to me.

As far as 'cults' and radical Christianity go, I have a hard time understanding where this idea of a cult even comes from. No one has told me yet what I should believe or think. They have given me great advice on how to succeed in this business. I recognize that a great deal of Amway distributors are Christians with strong beliefs, but this does not equate to a cult. Finally, I wonder whether you got into this business to get rich or to reach some dreams. Because I can tell you right now, there are many ways to get rich that pay off much more quickly than Amway and require less effort, as I'm sure you know by now. This business really isn't for everyone, and to those that are now opposed to Amway based soley on your page, I'm sorry that they did not bother to be fully informed. I have information of my own as well, like one of my upline can finally provide enough that his wife doesn't have to work anymore. They are 2 of the greatest people I know. They certainly aren't stupid, naive, lying, or uninformed.

Anyway, I really have no purpose for this e-mail other than to voice my concern at certain comments on your page and maybe to voice some of my thoughts on this matter. I would appreciate it if you did not quote this e-mail at all except on your "Your Stories" section, in its entirety with my name omitted. If I wanted to make my views public, I would have my own Amway webpage. My goal in this e-mail has really been to provide some of my views about Amway and life and speak some of my opinions. I have a hard time containing my views. Thanks for your time.


I thank you for taking the time to put together a web site as comprehensive as this. I have spent most of my time with your site as well as completely reading Jeff Probst's web site. Since he is a current qualified Emerald, this establishes credibility with Amway Distributors...well, some of them, anyway. I was one of the many who surrendered the critical thinking process to simply blind faith in my upline. I was a distributor in the early 90s and was 'core' for about two years. I went to all the functions I could afford..and not afford. It was after maxing out my credit cards with cash advances, (functions being 'cash only', thank you), that I stopped going to all of them. I transformed my apartment to the "Ama-Pad"...everything needed, and sometimes not needed, that could be bought from Amway, was bought from Amway. When the burden of even the SOT's expenditure became too much, I stopped them. It was then that I began to regain my critical thinking. Actually, I DID have my critical thinking intact during the entire time. I just did not ACT on it. I wondered about how a function..even an Open Meeting, could lose money. When I did inquire about this, I was assured by my sponsor, who was only giving me the response from his sponsor, (again with the blind faith), that the excess monies collected went to a pool that was distributed throughout the Britt Motivational System to assist those functions that suffered a financial loss. After reading through this site and Jeff Probst's site, all I can say is, "Yea, right." I let my distributorship lapse in the beginning of 1996. Why am I writing to you now about all this? My sponsor is still my best friend. Can you believe it? I was not ostracized by him as taught by the System!! Perhaps it is the fact that I still order products from him. I admit, I do like the core line products. Perhaps it is just that he truly is my best friend and some things you just do not sacrifice in the name of Amway. I prefer to think that it is the latter over the former. He still provides me with the mantra designed for a "distributor with extreme potential who has lost his way". Nevertheless, I truly believe he respects my decision. I have shown him URL's about the sites that I have found. His response was that of an Amway robot. In a nutshell, he was very critical of me for spending six hours reading through some of the sites I found (I have since found more and have spent MANY more hours reading!!). I should be concentrating on the positive instead of the negative. To that, I say, BULL. I should be concentrating on the FACTS instead of fiction. Sometimes the truth is negative. Take a look at the Bible. (If you are not a Christian, my apologies, I won't take long.) Jesus says that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The ONLY way to get to God. Without Him, you will not go to Heaven. Well, if that is the case, then where do you go according to the Bible? Some negative place called "Hell". Uh-oh!! There is NEGATIVE in the Bible!! Does this mean we should stop reading it??? Back to my sponsor... he holds a MASTERS degree in Psychology. His critical thinking, about non Amway issues, is VERY good. However, when it comes to Amway...it is the ONLY way. Soooooo, me being only educated with a high school diploma, decided to use Amway against him. Since he would not listen to me being negative, I rephrased my approach in another email. I asked him to take a look at Jeff Probst's site. I told him that I was not being critical of the business, but just had some genuine questions about making additional money. I told him I was COUNSELING UPLINE about this. Since Mr. Probst claimed to be making money with the AMO System, and this information was not readily available to the lower-end distributor, I queried, "Why?" If there is MORE money to be made within the System itself, should not that be touted as well??? Since we get into the business to make money to make our dreams become realities, would not this be extremely motivational?? My sponsor responded favorably to this type of questioning. Especially since I threw in "counseling upline" !!! Hey, if it gets him to look at it, well, does this make me deceptive??? *smile* I just happened to come across all this while researching religious cults on the net. My sponsor IS my best friend and our families are very close. I got so involved in reading through all of the web sites because of what has happened to him recently. He was audited by the IRS. They disallowed almost all of his expenditures for the current year. When he objected to the decision, he made the mistake of saying that he had done it that way for the last several years according to the guidelines of business deductions. Well, they said, "Oh really?" and went back several years and disallowed all that, too. Now he is in arrears to the IRS with back taxes, fines, and penalties to the tune of over 11,000 dollars. What was the reason for disallowing it? It was all legal, mind you. But, since he had shown a LOSS EVERY SINGLE YEAR, it was regarded as a HOBBY instead of a small business. He lost the appeal. It did not shake his beliefs of the financial salvation that Amway has to offer. You see, within the Britt System, it is often "proved" that it can be done with the parading of new pins across the stage. Even if only ONE new Emerald goes across stage, that is proof enough that SOMEONE did it!! You can too!! But at what cost, I ask? Not just financial, either. The scary thing is, I STILL catch myself considering getting back in the business. I have been out of Amway for some time now. Yet, I cannot help but feel like I may be "missing out" or "getting left behind" every now and then. I may actually get back in, if at all possible, directly under Jeff Probst. It seems that he wishes to bring ethics BACK into the System. However, it is highly unlikely that he will be able to establish such a system, if that is even one of his goals. There will always be someone there to abuse it. Greed is powerful, indeed. Charles, thank you for your time and dedication. You may post part or all of this email.


Hi. My husband and I just recently joined with Amway about 2 weeks ago. After we finally received catalogs and started comparing prices we began to realize that we were not going to save as much money as we had been led to believe. We also came to the conclusion that they are all making money off of each other by selling Amvox, long distance service, credit cards, and of course in our oponion the over priced products they offer to everyone they get to join. The couple that sponsered us happens to also be my husband's cousins. We have forked out $216 for motivational tapes from Network Twenty-One and an Amway start-up kit with samples. We have signed something I'm not sure of the name of the form but we have not signed the contract that we are supposed to send back to Amway. We are not sure what to do. I have read "How to Get a Refund" but am still a little confused. Do you have suggestions???


An interesting conversation occured between me and an Amway distributor. I give credit to a line in an "X-Files" episode for the most excellent response I gave him. :o) After talking with him about your site and others, coupled with my own personal experience, he went on to "prove" that it works by explaining to me how there were new Directs, Emeralds, and Diamonds walking across the stage. He asked me, "How come you are not dissuaded with all the evidence to the contrary?" I replied, "because all the evidence to the contrary is not entirely dissuasive." I could not help but laugh, because that was an exact quote from a particular "X-File" episode, and I do not think he realized that he set himself up..LOL. Just some humor for you...well, I enjoyed it, anyways!! :o) Good Day, Sir...


My name is *, I'm live in Monterrey, Mexico, a city that is currently the headquarters of Mexico Amway "Big Lie" Organization, i see your www page and you solve me many questions that i suposse that exists but nobody wants or knew to tell me. In Mexico, many people has involved into this "best way to get the bucks", but i call the "best way to get fuck and you don't notice by that", i lost many friends, and the real thing is that i see the true thru your page. But Amway people, lost every month more people since his start years by these reasons: - Amway Products are suitable to increment his price due dollar increment fluctation against PESO, our currency are not strong, and every month Amway products cost more, so, if the same products cost less in the corner store why pay more for Amway Products. - The system is the same, vary with more modern and updated examples, but in essence are the same. When i was in Amway, i can't explain that why i need to bought the tapes and books (and in mexico, you need to pay about $2.00 for a weekly "motivations" reunion, i can't explain that if AMWAY is a MILLIONAIRE Enterprise). In my entire life, i be a self motivated, i don't need for a motivation tape or something, is more motivate for me if my girlfriend believe in me or have a sex, or get with my bike to the mountains, or anything...except read some about guys who live from that i paid for the book (and you and me are sure that this guy is rich by the sale of his books) The real things that motivate you to make big enterprises and be sucessful don't come from books, came from real life experiences. So, thanks a lot and i email me if you want.


I am curious. In what way does this site benefit you, and how much time and money do you spend on it?


Thank you, Charles! However, I cannot use it..LOL. This info is based on the assumption that our line of sponsorship, up and down, did not know about it. I had a unique line of sponsorship. I actually KNEW about the 4% bonus qualifications because they freely shared that information during product pickup and team calling. They even talked about the 10 Retail Customer rule!! They would show how to get the person that said, "no," to be a retail customer. Further, my sponsor would explain that selling someone a pack of gum for a quarter and getting a record for it would constitute a retail customer. Since it was OUR business, we could sell OUR product for whatever price, right? I do not know if it was feasable or fell within Amway's Rules. I can tell you this, the buy-back rule was talked up about Amway's products. However, on the tools, heh heh, yea right. Never heard about a buy-back option. The statistics in the business are meaningless to the actual distributor. They have a dream. A dream that they can build this business. Even if it is .8 of 1% chance of making it, there is STILL that chance. THAT is what is being pounded in their heads!! If the DD, Ruby, Sapphire, Pearl, Emerald, Diamond can do it...SO CAN THEY. There IS a chance!! Will it be YOU ?? Etc, etc, etc. That is a TOUGH wall to break down when someone is determined to "make it". Oh well, I am out of it. There is no pressure of feeling like a failure when I don't bring a whole row of downline with me, anymore. I go to work everyday, and you know what? I make more money NOW with my efforts of 40 hrs a week than I ever did my entire time as a distributor. Now THAT, my friend, is a tangible result!


In a section of the page titled "A Britt distributor talks about The Work and Income from the Britt System". About half way down, he says that the convention hall or Arena has to be "broken down" (ie: stage, sound, lighting removed, etc..) This is started immediatly after the Sunday afternoon sessions. I've seen the folding chairs, stage, and sound systems being dismantled before the distrubutors have had a chance to leave the inner arena area. Many times my wife and I have driven past an arena early the morning after (on our way to the airport), without seeing a AMI semi, van, car in sight. I also remember one function a couple years ago. After it ended on Sun. a lot of people wanted to hang around and talk. One of the diamonds who was running the function got on the mic and told everyone he needed all of us to leave NOW, because they had to be out by midnight. For some reason he also added that that some other "thing" was going to be setting up in the arena after they were out that night as well. Plus all the "free" DD labor at the function, with that small army... They would have the place deserted in no time.

_____________________________________________________________________

Section 2:

There HAS to be BIG $$$ in the system. Why? I am definatly 7 down from Britt in the Renfrow leg. My Emerald's ( *) finally couldn't stand being counseled by our upline diamond. All I really know is this fellow ( Bob Smiley ) was a TOTAL control freak! I've heard so many horror stories, the 4-hr board plans, the notorious "blood couch" ( this is where you would sit while he verbally beat the drap out of you for not showing more plans, etc...) on and on.... Our emerald finally gave Smiley an ultimatum to do things the way the Britt Worldwide system taught ( everything else, but be nice about it.). Smiley refused. I am sure he tried to steal the top people from my emerald, but I can't be sure. It go so bad Bill Britt had to step in. My Emerald was given the go-ahead to join WWDB and given a choice between Ron Puryear or Jack Daughery (sp) as a new "mentor/upline". ( Jack was still with World Wide Dreambuilders then) Not being a complete idiot, my Emerald chose Puryear... So what motivation is there for Ron Puryear to step in as our upline? SYSTEM PROFIT! duh! I was always under the impression (deception?) that it was out of the goodness of his heart... Thru your's and the Probst's site, I finally learn the truth and am able to put 2 & 2 together, with all the things I chalked up to people just "caring about you". So, hear my Wife and I are, absolutly heart-broken, not really about the system profit (even though I detest it) but that people who we have held in the highest of all respect, have bold faced lied to us about " being taught for free", "ALL profit from functions, and tapes goes back to run WWDB" (of course I asked, I'm not that dumb!), " I pay the same price you do", etc... I respect and love these people so much that my Wife and I would believe them without question. 5 years of time, energy, money, and belief have been invested in our business. We have yet to really speak to our sponsors about what we have found. I have told them a few things that they really didn't know about system profits, and they were surprised as well. I have already received a 5 part amvox from my emerald, in response to my quick "we need to talk" message I sent to my sponsor. Word travels fast!!!!! In my Emerald's response he did confirm (without my mentioning) speaker fee's ($2500 for an emerald) and tape money (didn't say how much). My Wife and I are examining all our options right now, I'm sure you understand... But one thing is for certain: Our faith has been shaken if not broken, and things will NEVER be the same for us in the Amway business. All I can say about Amway Corp. is that Rich DeVos was right when he saw it coming right from the start. And Amway is a decent company. If it just wasn't for that dog gone greedy that pervades distributor organizations and destroys the image of an otherwise fine company. Any thoughts you can give me Charles will help. Thanks.


I decided to write this after reading lots of online information on Amway. I was recently invited to a "meeting" to hear about a "business opportunity"--which, as I suspected, was Amway. I decided to go--keep an open mind, and all that, and have been considering the "plan." I even went to an open meeting to see what all the fuss was about. However, after reading the various comments on this site, I was glad to see that some of my unspoken concerns were not my imagination. The two biggies for me, too, are the sexism and the Christian overtones. As a single woman, I defininitely got the message that I would be an outsider. Not to mention the fact that even if I were married, I would not relegate myself to the backseat and be the "obedient little woman." As a non-Christian, I too felt very uncomfortable with that aspect of the meeting, despite the fact that the people trying to sponsor me are Jewish! Anyway, that's all I had to say. Thanks for having this site available so I could make an informed choice NOT to sign up.!


Hello again, sir!! O.K...sue me... I am slow reading up on everything!! A quick comment about something I read in your Dec '97 mailbag: "I wish you good luck and hope you can see that Amway is an ethical business just as much as Microsoft, IBM, Ford, Etc Etc...but's it is the people who build a business who are at fault." PLEASE tell me that you nailed this goober for calling the companies he named "ethical" !!!! It has been PROVEN that Bill Gates STOLE the idea for the Graphical User Interface initially created by Xerox in its earliest stages before going on to Apple. This GUI is now widely known as Windows!! This information was provided in a documentary on PBS about the advent of computers. They went into great detail on Bill Gates and his "ethics". As for naming Ford and their "ethical" business, well, let's not forget a man named "Tucker". I think the Big Three auto makers and the Government helped run him out of business to stifle what was sure to be some very stiff competition in the automotive industry. Put simply, the "ethics" that he speaks of about Amway have been cast aside in defense of the almighty dollar. Their "ethics" have never shone more brightly than when they targeted Sidney Schwartz' and Ashley Wilkes' web sites. From what Rich DeVos has stated on his "Directly Speaking" tapes, I can see a man who really does want an ethical business. After all, why would he chastise the people who helped make him and Jay rich? However, I still think that Amway, as a corporation, will set aside ethics in order to protect the bottom line. I believe this after reading through Jeff Probst's site and pondering his theories as to why there have not been any changes in Amway's handling of the AMO's. Well, Charles, hope you enjoyed the input.


Hi my name is * and I am an Amway distributor. I too have studied the claimes made and I find you should look to individuals not the corporation to find your faults. It seems like alot of dropouts and people who don't succeed at something and drop out your opinion is full of partial truth. Like college and everything else in life people succeed by persistance and refusing to give up until their goal is reached. In almost area of business and life 20% of the people are the achievers. If you compare the Amway business to almost any other you will find the rates of real success the same. In college There is a 50% dropout rate, does that make it bad. I am sure that you can find loads of people who have failed at college who can create a web site like yours. Many of your claims, if not most of your claims are only half truths therefore discrediting your whole paper. If you have to resort to half truths to make your point then you don't have a point at all but simply a emotionally charged irrational argument that doesn't hold water. For the same reason I don't go to med school drop outs when I am sick others should not go to you if they are serious about starting an amway distributorship. Like any endeavor in like if it is worth something at all it will not be easy to achieve. Only those who really want success in that area will stick through it, no matter how uncomfortable it gets or how long it takes. If you look at great successes in ouhistory you will see a long struggle before success and many who quit in the face of the struggle. Ab Lincoln failed for 20plus years before coming president. Thomas edison failed hundreds and hundreds of times before he made a good lightbulb. Many people fail to persist out of their comfort zone and will always blaim others for their failure. Winners get knocked down and get back up until they succeed. You are right about taking a while to get to diamond for many folks. Scott and MJ Micheal took six years to go direct but today they are diamond and it was because they did not quit when things go tough. Today they paid off they 12,000sq ft home shortly after it was built. A 65yr old couple just went diamond in just over a yr and EDC in less than two. Others have taken 20yrs to go diamond. How many people do you and I know that have worked for 40plus years for a company to retire broke. I would rather take 20 yrs to go diamond and have that lifestyle that to have quit half way and have that to think about the rest of my life in poverty. There was a man I can't think of his name off hand but he made a gold strike that was huge. After a while he though it had run out, so he sold it. An earthquake exposed the rest of the gold just three feet farther. After that he always said just three feet farther when the going got tough.

You may have gotten envolved with a few bad apples but if you would have been persistant they would have dropped out. If you fail at something and it is worth it you should get up like a man and hit it again. To complain and blaim is not taking responsibility for your actions. Anyone can fail and blame others but it is a man who takes responsibility and says I did this and that and I am responsible.

The incomes in the sa-4400 are grossly understated. If you had to compare the actual incomes of sapphires, emeralds, diamonds and above to business executives and the hours spent making them. The amway distributors would be far ahead. The SA-4400 is only an example to help people understand. That $65 a month active distributors is funny. To be classified as active you don't have to do that much. Those who follow the pattern and work it like a real business see far greater results. As for people going broke it is out of stupidity. The Amway corp will buy back all items that are maketable. If they lost money it was out of bad judgement. Everyone who succeeds in this business had to get out of their comfort zone and talk to people, most doing those things for the first time. Very uncomfortable, but what is the reward for persistance in any endeavor. Sweet success that makes you a better person.


Thank you so much for your information on "years to go Diamond." It was such an encouragement to know that it can be done. What a great feeling to know that I won't have to wait around for my retirement from here. Keep up the good work.


I took the trouble (big deal, not) to look in the census to find out what the divorce rate was in there. It seems to me that the divorce rate should be calculated on the number of married people that get a divorce. I guess I was lucky and I found what I think are those statics for a few years. 1994 - 16% (160 out of 1000), 1993 - 15.4%, 1992 - 15.2%. The next page shows data for earlier years back to 1980, which was 10%. There has been an obivious steady increase in divorce rate which I didn't realize, I thought it was rather steady. So I learned something. You can see this for yourself at http://www.census.gov/main/www/search.html

and put in the words divorce rate. Go to the hit titled "untitled" and is about Appendix A, Table A1. this should give you "Summary of Annual Data on Demographic, Social, and Economic Characteristics: 1985-1994, and 1980". Line number 63, (I think about page 3 of 10) has the title "Divorced persons per 1000 married persons, spouse present". This line I think is independant of whether it is a first or whatever divorce. I have no idea how Amway determines it's divorce rate and until it is made clear, I don't know how anybody including you can make a comparison that would make sense. Thank you for your webpage,


Have you heard anything about a bunch of diamonds namely Leif Johnson crown and other diamonds Jim Bellacera, Larry McKracken, Bob and Dick Payne, Mike Singleton and others having some kind of disagreement with the INA diamonds and splitting off to form their own group.....If so why etc.....thanks


>
> Ask and ye shall receive :o) A friend of mine just came back with
> this. Hope this helps.
>
>
> It happened about a year-and-a-half ago. The dispute was over the
> movement of INA to direct fulfillment, where all distributors where
> given warehouse ordering capabilities, and tools (of course). Johnson
> formed, along with the other diamonds, a new group called GlobalNet.
> The ruckus caused by all this was enormous mainly due to the "choice"
> that Johnson's and breakaway diamonds directs were given. (Either stay
> with INA or go with GlobalNet). One emerald couple, now diamond, in
> Texas, the Dubose's, was forced to go into GlobalNet but petitioned
> Amway to rejoin INA. Of course, non-directs were not given a choice.
>
> An interesting side note to this soap opera was that Johnson, in the
> middle of all this, resurfaced as a gay (not homosexual) bachelor
> again after a contentious, but kept under the wraps divorce from his
> wife Beverly. There's a whole other story about that.
>

This has been helpful. A few more questions that maybe you can give me some insight to.

1 Could you go into more detail about what the problem with direct fullfillment was. It seems like a pretty good idea, basically eliminating product pickup, which was (is) kind of a pain in the rear. Understand that I don't have any problems with the Amway Corp in general but believe in full disclosure. With direct fullfillment you have to pay the eaches cost which is more than the case cost, but in some cases with travel time, gas, etc it is worth it. This does not address the point whether Amway products are competitively priced. That is a seperate issue that each person has to figure out for himself.

2 Bob DuBose now a diamond just spoke at a Diamond Symposium here in Albuquerque....any more scoop on why he did not like Globalnet?

3 Leif Johnson was married to Beverly Johnson, she in her own right a diamond, with two personally sponsored legs, Vic Herlacher and John Griffiths. When they got married they were crown ambassadors. Now that Beverly is single and back to her pre married name Beverly Salee she is still calling herself Crown....any idea on that?

4 Personally I like Leif Johnson, and if what you report is factual, then it poses an interesting problem for the ultra religious people. In addition, there might be another gay or homosexual (what is the difference) male diamond in this group. I could care less but that is another discussion.

The comment about gay meant happy not homosexual

5 From anyone's perspective what advangage/disadvantage would there be to being in the Globalnet group.

6 Further info on "petiioning" Amway to join a different group. I didn't know this could be done.

7 Any scoop on whether the Globalnet group has the blatant Christian slant in their upline Diamond core philosophy, which you would not find out fully until you reached the higher pin levels. From what I have read about many groups, if you do not tow the Christian line you won't get too far in the ranks of the AMO. Personal beliefs, in my opinion should be just that -personal-.

8 If anyone can find a list of Globalnet functions can you e-mail it to me?

9 People complain about the tape costs, but it is all relative. In my unamed profession I have paid %500.00 for a 10 tape continuing education series for recertification. In additon it is not uncommen tor me to pay 500.00- 1,500 for a day of training in my profession.

10 With the new bonus structure, it is possible for a distributor who maintains direct to ruby volume for 12 months to make pretty good bucks.....$45,000-$60,000, net, if you had 20-30 people sponsored and weren't paying out too much to a few single large legs. While not a lot of money to some 45k-60k is big bucks to others, even if it took 40 hours a week......it beats working 50 hours for $30.000 a year.....but this is another whole discussion...

11 I find the posts by others interesting....not as a point to be overly positive or negative....each person should sort things out on their own...extremes bother me in any direction.

12 Doing 100 pv in a month can be tough for some people who are not making pretty good money before they get in. It requires spending 250.00 - 400.00 per month no matter how you slice it....and if you are not already spending it, it can be a stretch and a budget drain....Remember some people will shop at an upscale store and pay $55.00 for a men's shirt and thing they got a fair deal, other people shop at Mervyn's and pay $20 and would never spend more because they don't have the money, or don't think it is worth it....Neither person is right.....If people want to spend more on Amway products it is their choice to do their own cost comparisons.

13 I hope this does not sound like rambling. Any comments to my above responses are appreciated.


I've read some items on the WEB regarding the successful AMWAY motivational "systems". They were interesting. One of them emphasized the system Bill Britt started, World Wide Dream Builders. I am an Amway Distributor who is part of this system. I am in "the business" on the hobby level and my income from the business shows it. I have no complaints, I would agree that the cost comparisons we used are best case scenariors. However, I have found that buying Amway products at full retail does result in savings and buying at the "wholesale" price results in a savings that more than covers the costs associated with the World Wide system. There are two questions asked on the WEB about the Britt System. Is Bill Britt and the higher pins in WWDB making money from the system? If they are, is this bad? Amway manufactures about 400 core line products. One of the 8 CORE steps taught in the WWDB system is to by 100% from your own store. If AMWAY manufactures it, and we need that type of product, we usually buy Amway's products. We buy stuff that is not part of the 400 products in AMWAY's core line that are manufactured by WATKINS (a direct selling company since 1868 that has adopted a marketing plan similar to Amway's around 1991). It is to our economic advantage to be Watkins Representatives to buy our Watkins products at wholesale rather than retail, even though we only put in a few orders each year. We also use essential oils for aromatherapy (Amway will start producing 2 aromatherapy products in the fall of 1998). We buy our essential oils from Young Living & Essential Oils, another MLM. We are at the "customer" level, but if we increase our use slightly we will become "Distributors". We have a friend who does Melaleuca and another who does Avon and make a few purchases from them each year of products not found on the extensive product lists we have from AMWAY, WATKINS, & YLEO. We do a lot of shopping from the Amway Catalogs. Some of the items in the catalogs are significantly more expensive that what we can find in other stores, some are competitive. Amway's prices are better than Spiegle's or J.C. Penney's which is all that they promise them to be. We are very happy with the service provided by Amway's Catalog division, and feel that this is worth a small premium in price. The line of women's clothes in the catalogs is, however, limited and my wife is also a Weekenders Casual Wear FAshion Coordinator (yet another MLM) and is reasonably successful enough in retail sales. I also dabble in being a Kaeser & Blair Dealer. This is not really MLM, it does have a single level sub-dealer recruiting override commission deal. K&B dealers sell promotional advertising products to busininess, and has been in the business of building business since 1894. I therefore have some first hand knowledge of the training and motivational material available from several MLMs.

World Wide Dream Builders (Bill Britt's system, Amway)  $6.00 per tape
Amway's audio cassette tapes                   (approx) $3.00 per tape
Melaleuca tapes                                         $2.99 per tape
YOung Living Essential Oils (training/motivatonal)      $3.00 per tape
Y     L      E         O    (prospecting tapes)         $1.00 per tape
Watkins (monthly training/motivational)                 $2.00 per tape
Weekenders (rarely have tapes available)                 FREE 
Kaeser & Blair audio cassette training/mot. tapes      $14.00 per tape
AudioBooks Direct (a book club for books on tapes)     $12.00 per tape

Given this price list, I conclude that WWDB tapes are more expensive than tapes other MLMs provide (including Amway). Their tapes, however are less expensive than tapes from companies who are independent of a specific MLM. The conclusion that WWDB earns a profit on these tapes is plausable. The claim that WWDB tapes are a bargin is also plausable. I am on Standing Order for WWDB tapes. This means that I get either a single (rally) or double (seminar) tape each week from my sponsor. This costs me over $400 each year. As I said before, my savings from personal use more than covers my WWDB costs. I, personally believe, that I am getting a good value for my money. Let me put this in perspective. My job is programming computers. If the Britt system is a racket, then there are several far worse rackets for computer programmers. Microsoft, Lotus, and most other software providers have "certification" programs. YOu get to buy books (quite expensive books), and you can go to classes (very expensive classes), and if you want you can buy training programs (including video tapes, audio tapes, CD-ROMs, etc.) to study and learn the software product. Then you get to take a test (which you pay for) or series of tests. If you pass these tests, you get to be certified. Once you are certified, you need to get recertified each year. Not only that, you are certified for a specific version of the software. When a new version comes out you need to get certified for that one. You can spend thousands of dollars getting certified, but have picked the wrong product for the geographic area in which you want to live, and can not work on the software products for which you are certified. I won't even get into the risk of being over-qualified. Given this as a comparison, I do not think that the WWDB system is ripping me off.

Full disclosure, however, is a good thing. If Bill Britt is making money from my WWDB tool purchases, I would like to know. If the Emeralds and Diamonds are earning a royalty from the tapes I buy, I would like to know. Although the profit Bill Britt is alleged to be earning from his "system" is significant, it does not seem to be excessive. I am on standing order and spend over $400 a year on the "system" tapes. I think that I do get my money's worth on them.