hello.
i am an amway distributor, at the 4000 pv level. i do enjoy reading your site. i have been using it to stop the propogation of misinformation in plan- showing. anxious distributors (even at higher levels) tend to pass on information before investigating it. i believe that some of the information on your site is fair, and some is unfair.
in my opinion your information on "doing 100pv" may be a bit off. i have not heard to date any distributors promoting a 1 to 1.40 pv/bv ratio. in our organization, we teach it is closer to 1:2. i just made an order tonight using the software and the results were 339pv to a total order amount of 692.27 plus 55.06 for taxes. this is closer to 1:2 than what you provide on your site. at your request i will send you updated info on actual 100pv orders. the amounts are closer just over $200 than what you have listed. you should update this portion of your page to keep credibility. in contrast, i did find the section on "direct income" quite fair and accurate.
thank you!
functions and tools, my thoughts. compared to the two other businesses i own, the amount invested in my amway business (i purchase at least $600 in tools and pay around $1500 for functions per year) is completly trivial. in starting my screen printing and computer businesses, i invested 2 to $3000 and continue to purchase items to keep them on the cutting edge. as far as making money on tools, i agree. by the time i reach psdd i certainly want to make some of that money back. in fact, i can tell you that my upline emerald looses hundreds of dollars per week on tapes from incorrect orders and over purchasing. their tool income is slightly larger than tool losses. you may not know how much work is done being a tool-ordering direct, but some compensation is only fair. i think it noble that the company shares the profits with the distributors. also, the prices are fair. compare $6 for paul pilzer's "economic paradigms" to the listed price in success magazine,which is $14.95. also check the prices on motivational speaker's tape sets which can run as high as $600 for a set of 12 tapes. i don't see any anti-motivational-speaker-tapes websites. third, functions. the prices are excellent. i am a civil engineer. would you believe that the conferences i attend are twice the rate of what i pay for both myself AND my wife WITH accomodations at an internet services function? please research the prices of the medical industry's conferences also. you may find that a doctor will pay $1200 for a one-day seminar on a new surgical procedure.
in closing, would you consider a fair story from a distributor like myself? i will tell it like it is. there are ups and downs to any business including amway. i will seperate the fluff from the facts. my final analysis is that the amway business (in my organization) is highly enjoyable, challenging, and i am making a decent income. you must not promote amway as the "perfect low- cost" business. you must realize there is money to be invested. but the rewards can be great. i have over 30 customers (really!) who love the products and how much is saved over brands like Tide. this is why i make $500 to $1000 per month as a 4000pv distributor. i will be pleased to hear your response. again, thank you for your information on your site.
I've been reading your web site and find the informaiton interesting. One complaint about Amway that I don't think is quite fair is the $4/4% handling charge. If you go through almost any mail-order company, you will pay an handling charge. Some companies are better than others. I think that Land's End charges 7%, but has a maximum (this encourages you to put more into an order). If you belong to a "club" like "Audio Direct"; or "Columbia House"; or "Book of the Month Club"; the cost of the products is quite reasonable. However, they obviously make their money in the handling charges.
Compare Amway's $4/4% (for CORE products) and 7% for Catalog products with Watkins' handling charge or $6/6%.
If a Direct commits to one shippment per week to a single location, he gets to pay no handling charge, Limiting the number of places to which items are shipped and scheduling the shipping dates is in Amway's interest and helps keep shipping costs down. It is not unreasonable to reward the Distributors who enable Amway to do this. In fact it makes good business senes (MLM or traditional business). I've read some complaints about Amway and AMO's that sound serious. I don't see the $4/4% as one of these.
I unfortunately wasted 2 years with this scheme. I have remained friedly with a few people who I bump into on occaison. My ex sponsor has wasted close to 6 years and still has a small pin. Despite all of there grand talks at meetings, my silver is still that after 4 years, and most people I've found just peak once to hit a pin and then have their volume drop off. What made me quit? I heard the stupidest quotes at a function and just walked away. One diamond proceeded to say, "If you can't succeed at this, you can't succeed at anything." The next proceeded to say that if you follow the system exactly, you can't fail. There were definately a lot of people there following the system not succeeding (I define success in business by making a PROFIT) and that promise is definately one his ass can't cover. A good way to know when it's quiting time. If your gut grows faster than your p.v. check, quit!
p.s. I'm in my 20's and I've been prospected 5 times! It's easy to see it coming.
Consider the following dialog....
the Amway Distributor says ....
I am on Standing Order for WWDB tapes. This means that I get either a single (rally) or double (seminar) tape each week from my sponsor. This costs me over $400 each year. As I said before, my savings from personal use more than covers my WWDB costs. I, personally believe, that I am getting a good value for my money.
Let me put this in perspective. My job is programming computers. If the Britt system is a racket, then there are several far worse rackets for computer programmers. Microsoft, Lotus, and most other software providers have "certification" programs. YOu get to buy books (quite expensive books), and you can go to classes (very expensive classes), and if you want you can buy training programs (including video tapes, audio tapes, CD-ROMs, etc.) to study and learn the software product. Then you get to take a test (which you pay for) or series of tests. If you pass these tests, you get to be certified. Once you are certified, you need to get recertified each year. Not only that, you are certified for a specific version of the software. When a new version comes out you need to get certified for that one. You can spend thousands of dollars getting certified, but have picked the wrong product for the geographic area in which you want to live, and can not work on the software products for which you are certified. I won't even get into the risk of being over-qualified. Given this as a comparison, I do not think that the WWDB system is ripping me off.
The ex-Amway Distributor says ...
"I've heard this argument before. You are certainly correct that the certification programs you talked about are expensive. I'm in the computer field myself and know what you are talking about. Certified people however do receive much higher salaries than non-certerfied people.
Now let's factor in the success rates. Look at Amway's SA4400. According to Amway's own survey, less than 1% qualified as a Direct Distributor. Even fewer at the higher pins. You will probably spend less than per year on an Amway business, but look at the return on your investment. Does the certification process have a higher success than1%? Does the amount of money you would receive after being certified exceed $25,000 a year?
At this point, unfortunately, but people walk away from each other and conclude that the other persons just does not understand. Too bad, if the carry on a dialog a little further, they may get closer to the truth.
Did you ever notice that political polls always prove whatever the pollster wants to prove. It is in the way you askthe question. Often questions are asked in an unfair way. I think that the "success rate" question is not fair, as phrased.
The population of people eligible to "buy a kit" includes compared with the population of people starting on the MCSE certification. Most MCSE candidates will either have a college degree, advanced technical training or experience in the field. Actually, most candidates will already be doing the work and the certification is just recognition. Most new Amway distributors are not really committed to doing the business. Actually, I think most get in to either get their sponsor to stop bothering them or the buy products at wholesale. About half of all Amway distributors are not even active.
If you compared the success rate (i.e., direct distributor) of people who actually do the 8 CORE steps of World Wide Dream Builders each month for a year I think that that would be a more fair comparrison. I doubt that the success rate is 100% as WWDB tapes would have you believe, but I suspect that it is much more impressive than the 1% one would derive from the SA4400.
As far as earing $25,000 after being certifited. YOu will earn more than that. But the real question is will you earn $25,000 more than you would have earned without the certification. I doubt that that is generally the case. You could also ask what would you have to do with you present career to earn an additional $25,000 per year within a year from now.
That is probably a more fair (ie comparing apples to apples) comparrison. Perhaps the Amway Opportunity will still not come out a head, but it will certainly seem more attractive than the way your presented it.
What do you think?
The 10 Customer Rule and 70% rule are intended to prevent the Amway Sales and MArketing plan from becoming a pyramid. They are, however violated by the many distributors. Is this really bad.
The 70% rule requires a distributor to have 70% of his purchases either for downline (i.e., wholesale) or retail customers. Therefore, he should have no more than 30% of his purchases for personal use. This should prevent inventory loading, which is presurring a distributor to make an excessive investment in inventory that he will not be able to sell. Buying 50 cases of shampoo to just to get a higher pin level is not a good thing. However, if I buy $275 worth of Amway products and get 100 PV / 240 BV (my calculations) then why can't I have my (3% x 240) $7.20 bonus check as a rebate? Somebody in my upline will get to keep the $7.20 why not me? Retail stores are allowed to give rebates why not my Amway upline?
If (as is alledged by some distributors) some distributors are teaching their groups to not bother with retail sales at all, then that is an abuse that tends toward pyramiding. World Wide Dream Builders (Bill Britt's leg) does not. One of the eight core steps taught at every seminar is to have 10 retail customers using the In Home Shopping Service. There are serveral WWDB video tapes that teach how to increase retailing. It is true, that you are taught that your main activity should be showing the plan to sponsor people. However, if you follow the format taught by WWDB and believe their statistices, only 2 out of every prospect to whom you STP will be sponsored and you have 8 out of 10 who are potential retail customers. Ron Puryear emphasizes that 1/3 of his direct legs started out as retail customers.
The other rule that you must have 10 retail customers in every month that you expect to receive a bonus check I would answer with the same argument. If you have 1,000 PV in a month but no retail customers then you are doing something wrong. If, however, you are a 100 PV kind of guy, you seem to be in it to be wholesale customer not really to build the business, why should you be denied a rebate?
Againg, WWDB teaching on IHSS is to have at least 10 customers, to whom you sell 5 different products each month (each product will last about 4 months and be worth about 5 PV). Therfore you should do 250 PV in retail and 250 in personal use. Your personal circle is 500 PV. If you get a group like the 6-4-2 example then you should have 79 distributors each doing 500 PV in your group rather than 79 distributors each doing 100 PV. Doing retail adds profit to you both in personal sales and in bonus from your group. It also finances the $3,000 per year it costs to be in the WWDB system. It is also standard practice to be told at seminars that being CORE will require a $3,000 per year investment.
It seems from reading the WEB that there are abuses to the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan that need to be corrected. However, since the majority of distributors who are eligible for any bonus at all are only eligible for the minimum (3%) level it does not prove a conspracy to commit inventory loading that the majority of distributors who receive bonus checks are in violation of the 70% & 10 Customer rules. Perhaps these rules should be applicable to a certain minimum volume (e.g., 1,000 PV).
Thanks for listening ... I think that the dialog on the WEB about AMWAY is useful, although what you read should be taken with a an appropriate level of skepticism.
I was reading your price comparrison on www.awod.com/gallery/nwave/slarsen/amway.html. There are, I think a few errors in your data.
You show Dish Drops as costing 74% more than Palmolive. The cost analysis I have shows a savings of $0.57 a month with Dish Drops. I suspect that I have value of concentration data for this that you do not. Palmolive Ultra comes in a 28 ounce bottle and needs .56 ounces per use, while Dish Drops comes in a 33.8 ounce bottle and needs .17 ounces per use. Perhaps you might want to consider modifying that one.
I think that the shampoo and toothpaste are also concentrated than although I don't know the recommeded usage. I know that you think Glister Toothpaste's claim to be concentrated is based on the smaller nozzle. My wife hates mess and using the small nozzle makes a mess of the tooth paste. Therefore, the kids and I are verboten to use the small nozzle. In any case, my belief that the toothpaste is concentrated is based on my foam measure. I use enough glister to produce enough foam for my teeth to feel clean. I need much less Glister than I need Crest. If I use as much Glister as I would use Crest, my mouth gets much too foamy. If I use as much Creat as I use Glister, my mouth does not feel clean. This is unscientific and imprecise, but the toothpaste is concentrated and I think that your numbers are therefore off.
I have a similar measure for the shampoo. I have oily hair and need a strong shampoo. I use much less Amway shampoo than other brands to get my hair adequately clean. The shampoo is more concentrated but I don't know the ratio to do a precise cost per use comparison.
As far as deodorant, Amwy's is strong. When I buy the least cost deodorant I am usually disappointed in the results. People who are down wind from me are even more disappointed. Amway's deodorant works and if I need to spend more for it, that is OK.
I think that the figures for SPray & Wash are also not right. I'm not sure what is wrong with it but 356% higher Amway cost does not seem reasonable for that item.
Overall, I think that your analysis is fair and accurate. The core line Amway products are either a better buy or better quality than name brands in stores (most of the time). Non-Amway produced products available through the RDC's tend to be more expensive. Amway's catalog products are more expensive most of the time. I think that this data supports the suggestion that Amway Distributors tend to exagerate the savings potential of the Amway opportunity. However, I don't see this data as convincing evidence that Amway is a pyramid. If you want to save money using Amway products you should do your research.
I wrote to you regarding some ideas I have about the 70% rule and 10 customer rule. I infer from your response that I did not make myself clear on that subject.
My point is, I wonder if the FTC and intended those rules to prevent an individule who is doing 100 PV personal consumption and no retail or whlolesale activity from receing his $8.00 Bonus Check. It is my opinion that this is essentially a rebate. If Proctor and Gamble can give a rebate, why can Amway not do the same. If a business has a preferred customer program where after you buy 10 haircuts, you get the next one free. Are these situations so different than a Distributor buying Amway products for his personal use and expecting a rebate.
Your comments were somewhat strong ....
> On your email about the FTC (I didn't forward that one or the next one
> to you Scott) -- It is OK to go 80 mph in a 55mph zone? Is it OK to
> sell moonshine in a dry county? What right does an Amway distributor
> have to selectively decide which Rules and Regulations they wish to
> follow? What right does an Amway distributor have to ignore the
> rulings of the Federal Trade Commission?
>
>
> And you've just confirmed that you're doing the same. If you can look
> somebody in the eye and say you're running an honest and ethical Amway
> business even though you're ignoring rules and regulations that make
> the business a legal MLM, well, you'll probably go far in Amway.
No, it is not OK to go 80 miles an hour in a 55 MPH zone. However, a bus must stop at a train crossing, open its door and cross with the door open.. It is OK for a passenger car to just cross cautiously without stopping and openning its door. It is required for trucks to go down certain hills in second gear it is, however OK for cars to go down the same hill in drive. It is required to go at least 40 MPH on certain highways. However, if you are driving a military vehicle that is not save to drive at 40 MPH or above, then it is OK to drive slower.
No it is not OK to sell moonshine in a "dry" county. However, does that mean that if you were a Watkins Representative that you could not sell Watkins Pure Vanilla extract in that county. Note, FDA rules require that pure vanilla extract have an alcahol content of 35%.
My point is that I doubt that it is the FTC's intent that a Distributor operating on minimum volume be denied a bonus check due to the 70% and 10 Customer rule.
As it is my view that the Performance Bonus earned as a rebate for personal use purchases is no more illegal than a rebate or perferred customer premium offered from a retail store, I can look anybody in the eye and say that it is my opinion that what I am doing is perfectly legal and ethical. I am unhappy that this opinion causes to view me as unethical. Perhaps I am incorrect in my opinion on the legality of this (I am not a lawyer). I plan to write to the FTC and Amway Corp to clarify this for myself. Perhaps you would like to hear their answer.
I have learned a lot from your website and intend to continue reading it and hope that you will not mind my continuing to EMAIL you.
Hi Charles, how are you?? Do you remember me??
I hope You can read this e-mail, because I've sent one e-mails last december, and You didn't reply to me.
I write for the article posted by WSJ about my friend who is Double Crown Ambassador. He constantly travel to Chile. I know him, because I started my Amway business in Japan. I think Your facts are a "BIT" wrong about her income. The amount that he said obviously is post-taxed. You Should be research more about the high taxes in Japan (until 52%)
He called me, he said he'll be in my house in two weeks.
Greetings from Chile,
Thanks for the response Charles! That was the first written response I've ever received from any site critical of this business. My conclusion is that you are fair in your observations. I tell you what... my brother and I are very aware of the Britt system. We have friends who were a part of it. They are absolutely unprofessional. My brother coined the term "Britt Commies" for those of his organization! ha ha. Hey I have to go, but i'll write you back again! thanks,
Dear Sir,
Just briefly, I have been looking for the body of the report on the findings of the FTC investigation into Amway in the late 70's. As of yet, neither the FTC nor any of the people trying to get me involved with Amway have been able to produce the report.
Do you have a copy, or a suggestion as to how I may obtain one.
Thank you in earnest. I remain,
Just to say "thanks" for the work put into this site to confirm the "gut feeling" I already had. This is my first visit to this particular site. I do appreciate the invitation to share my story.
My husband & I have been distributors for four years now. Color me stupid or knieve, but I never knew there was money in the system. I just always thought it was there for support. I guess I knew it took money to produce the tapes & I figured someone was getting paid for that, which I didnt have a problem with. It all started about a month ago when I ordered a starter box, which for those who dont know is the "tool side" of the kit when you sponsor someone. When my tool order came in I was given an old, ancient "tool box" that was yellow in color it was so old. The material inside was outdated and not in use any longer. When I called my sponsor to question, I was told that they were instructed by the "upline" to deplete their inventory.
Well, I would not accept the outdated box and after two weeks finally was told that they would exchange it "this time". I still did not get the new starter box that had been so heavily promoted, instead I got a whiter, newer version of the old "tool box". I didnt understand how this business could be any different from any other; you open catalog, choose item, order item, pay for item and get what you paid for, not just what someone decides to send you, or someone's ancient inventory! This was only a sign of things to come. The very next night a distributor in our "downline" called to say she could not believe what she found on the internet. She went on to tell me about Jeff Probst"s site, an emerald in the business who was telling the truth about the tool system (which, by the way, I can not locate his site any longer, which is a shame because once I had a chance to digest it all I wanted to thank him as well).
As I mentioned earlier we have been dist. for four years, we always did all we were told to do. We went to functions thousands of miles away, that we could not afford with one income and three children. We sacrificed alot to be loyal to "the system".
We were on sot1 & sot2, went to every seminar, rally, regional, upline event, everything, because we were told if we were serious, then " whatever it takes" !
And for those distributors who still "believe" in the system, I dont bash it entirely, some of the books have been good for personal growth, (very expensive personal growth), most of the system promotes the system. And I dont bash Amway, I believe it started out to be something good, something I certainly believed in. I even believe the system started out as something good. Unfortunately, greed is a very destructive force that can take good people and good intentions and turn them into frogs in boiling water who dont realize until its too late the harm thats been done.
I was not told when shown "the plan" that the tool side was a separate business, and I have not heard it once from stage in four years (they are well coached). I was told after opening my kit to throw away my 10 customer rule. When questioned, they said I didnt need it.
After discovering all this, and based on my upline's responses; ie: this is really priviledged information, you deserve a cut at our level, if you have problem with the money, give it to a church, etc,, I felt like I'd been sucker punched and the wind knocked right out of me, I felt like Tom Cruise in "The Firm", involved in something that was not as it seemed, was not as I had told others-I didnt know.
What really amazes me is that there are those who see nothing wrong with deceiving others, not telling the entire truth.
Well, enough, I do apologize for being so long winded. As you can see, this was devastating to me, I cant share this opportunity with others and promote the system. I really wish Amway would have had the guts to have done somthing about it years ago. Four years of my life are gone now. Gone for something I never should have believed in in the first place.
Thanks to all who care enough to speak the truth,
as ugly and "negative" as it may be.
Since October 1993, my husband has spent over $16,000 pursuing the Amway Dream. Our return? Heartache and a near divorce. He still insists he is going to do something with this, and I believe he is "addicted". A guideline for how to determine whether an organization was a cult was published by a local sheriff's office (I will get permission from them before I send it to you) and Amway fits at least ten of 13 guidelines. I showed him this to no effect. I have begged, pleaded, cried, screamed, and I don't know what to do any more. He would rather mail order diapers at .30 each not counting tax and handling than buy them at the grocery store for .19 each, and I could go on and on about the other products, but it sounds like you know this very well already. I found your site while researching sites with the idea in mind of establishing my own, but I think you and many others are already speaking for the victims of Amway. Thank you so much, and I will send you anything I find that it doesn't look like you already have. God Bless!
I have read the "Business Manual" that came with the kit, quite a few times. As I remember from the few undergraduate and graduate law courses that I have taken, there something called the "reasonable man" principle. There is also the idea of intent. These aspects of a law deal with common law rather than statutary law. That is they are decided by courts rather than be the legislature. It is unlikely that the FTC will be finding individual who get a $10.00 bonus check and challenging the legality of that check. I can infer some agreement in your reply. If you are sponsoring and your Bonus check amounts to $4,000 (including downline bonuses) then you are doing some real business not just getting a rebate on personal use. By that point it is reasonable to expect you to include some retail in your business. You are right that the rule does not make a distinction as to the size of the bonus check for applying either the 70% or 10 customer rule. It is still my opinion that my getting a check for $8.63 even though I only bought stuff I wanted for my personal use that month is neither a criminal nor an unethical act. In Connecticut, liquor costs a lot more than it costs in Massachusetts. There are often a lot of cars with CT license plates in front of liquor stores in Massachusetts. The State of Connecticut is unhappy when somebody buys liquor out of state and avoids paying a sales tax. Actually, unmarked state police cars will follow CT drivers from a liquor store and pull them over in CT to confiscate liquor they bring in. CT does, however, permit you to bring in a modest amont of liquor ( I think it is 2 gallons per adult in the car ) legally. I suggest that the intent of the 70% & 10 customer rule is like that. It is OK to have 100% of your purchases for personal use if you are at a few hundred PV level. However, if you are really building a business you must have some retail customers. Amway can impose sanctions if these rules are not complied with by the Direct Distributor level. This is my interpretation of the rule and that you and I have a different understanding of this proves that the rule should be clarified. Perhaps because this rule is so frequently broken at the lower PV levels this is also the understanding of Amway Corporation and the majority of Distributors. That this is the understanding of so many individuals involved with Amway does not make Amway and the Distributor network illegal, immoral, or unethicial. I have read on the internet (I'm not sure if it were on your page or not) that the 10 customer and 70% rule was rarely complied with until the Direct Distributor Level. If that is the case, then perhaps Amway and the FTC are achieving exactly what is intended. I have already written to Amway and the FTC to ask for clarification on this and will share it with you. Another point, the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is on the World Wide Dream Builders' reading list. I've first read it while I was in high school, decades before Amway and I've read it a few times since I got into Amway. I think it makes a lot of sense. Perhaps you discount the author's opinions because they are endorsed by the Amway Motivational Organization systems (the devil's spawn). It detracts from a dialogue when one party implies that the only possible cause of disagreement between them is due to ignorance on the part of the other person. If you read through the opinions of the United States Supreme Court you will find many of the decisions also have disenting opinions. The only reason cases get that far is that the judges and lawyers below the supreme court disagree. It is not because one side is ignorant. Perhaps common curtesy is not part of Email etiquet. In face to face conversations, insulting the person with whom you have a disagreement is generally not effective. There are three positions about Amway that I see in reading the internet.
1. Amway is an inherently evil thing that should be destroyed.
2. Amway is a holy movement Biblically justified and ordained by God to save the worl.
3. Amway is a basically good idea implemented by flawed people. Some of whom have taken advantage of it. There is room for and need for improvement. I take the 3rd position for myself and am interested in those who also take that opinion. I discount what is said by types 1 & 2. If I suggest that one of your complaints may not be significant that does not mean that I disagree with all of your complaints. If there is going to be any correction to the abuses within Amway (and I think that we can both agree that abuses are real) then people who go with option 3 need to dialog with each other. They should let the type 1 & 2 peple insult each other and avoid that unproductive approach. It is the strength of your page that both pro and con opinions about Amway are presented. If my persistance on discussing this one point has provoked you to lowere you self to the "I know you are but what am I" argument I apologize. However, I appreciate the opportunity to express my opinions in this forum.
I found your article about the divorce rate interesting. I have heard it said by Amway Distributors speaking at World Wide Dream Builders functions that the divorce rate in the non-Amway world was 50% and within WWDB it was 1%. I think that the Readers Digest statistic does effecively challenge the 50% allegation. I, like you, would like to know how the 1% is derived.
However, your artical also presents some statistics that seem contradictory. There is a 43% probability that a new marriage will end in divorce. Yet 90% of all marriages end in the death of one of the spouses. These two statistics when considered together, do suggest that it is more difficult to keep a marriage together today than it had been in the past. I think that this is the point of the WWDB and this has a ring of some truth. WWDB suggests some reasons why the 2-to-5 year plan is more conducive to a permanent marriage than the 40-40 plan. This too has a ring of truth. A number of people writing into your web-site say that the process of building an Amway business caused additional stress on their marriage and resulted in a divorce. This too makes intuitive sense. The reality that I experience is that a lot of people that I know are divorced and that is unfortunate. I think that your article shed some light on this issue, but there is more to it than the article suggested. Thank you for presenting that information....
I have a couple of comments regarding your article estimating Emerald and Diamond income based on the SA4400. I had done a similar exercise and also found the statistics less than those quoted by speakers at World Wide Dream Builder functions and on tapes. However, to be fair to them, they did say that WWDB Emeralds & Diamonds were more profitable than the average Amway Emerald or Diamond. I think that your next point to that is that this proves the excessive income earned from tool sale. That may very well be so. I'd like to suggest a small error in your assumptions. In order to advance to the next level you must significantly exceed the minimum requirements for the first level. You assumed that Diamonds earn the average Emerald bonus. It would probably inflate the numbers to suggest that Diamonds earned the maximum Emerald bonus, but the do earn more than the average. I think that there are a few numbers you used where the maximum rather than average may be more accurate. Even doing the math this way, the $100,000 Emerald & $250,000 Diamond estimates seem too high. You also said in this article that the arithmetic average meant that half the Emeralds made more than this and half made less. Actually that would be the median income. The arithmetic average is the result of adding up all the Emerald incomes and dividing that by the number of Emeralds receiving an income. I would assume that the average is greater than the median, but that is just a guess. These few flaws do not disprove your basic thesis that the SA4400 statistics do not support the statement that Emeralds earn $100,000 per year and Diamonds $250,000 per year.
I think that your response has hit on the point where we agree. I suggest that if you are at 100 or even 300 PV and have sponsored no new distributor and have serviced no customers then you really are not actively building a Multi-Level Marketing business. You would probably have trouble convincing an IRS auditor that you intend to make a profit in this business. Unless you really enjoy the tapes and functions, you might consider skipping these too. You are a wholesale customer and not a business. My contention is that you still deserve the 3% or 6% rebate on your personal use purchases. I also suggest that at this level you are not a victim of inventory-loading. I do not have hard statistics, but would be willing to bet that more than half of all active distributors are really wholesale customers. A distributor at the 1,000 PV level who has no downline or customer volume is probably a victim of inventory loading. A person who as built a business to this level should have included retail customers and if he has refused do this, then the sanction of losing his Bonuses should be imposed. My point (and I apoligize for not being able to adequatley express it yet) is that distributors not building their business and purchasing for personal use at the 100 to 300 PV level can receive a bonus (rebate) without making Amway a pyramid. I did read Greg Garland's article. Although most Distributors who reach the SILVER level comply with these rules some do not. If you do not have any customers then your downline will not have any customers. You will have to work a lot harder to get to and stay at the SILVE level. The SA4400 also indicates that a significant number of SILVEL producers never sponsor anybody. So you can do it both ways. Amway should improve its enforcement of these rules. However, I do not think that it is the conspiricy level that some web authors suggest. I got a reply from Amway Corp that you might like to hear ....."
Thanks for this note as well as the other. Amway bonuses are based on product volume and nothing else. We feel it is very important for a distributors business to have customers. Customers stabilize volume and lead towards new distributors as well as referrals for new customers. This is how distributors originally built their businesses and one of the reasons we have the rule. You can check with the FTC or whoever, but I believe that Amway is the only company to have this type of rule. The rule is enforced by Directs and we expect that they enforce the sprit of this rule in a fair and consistent manner. Most Silver Producers, by the time they reach this level, have 10 customers without even trying so we don't think the rule is an issue for most distributors. Hope this helps"
I was thinking. Take a few photocopies of some facts from the web and hand them out at opens. Save a few people a stack of money and enlighten a few others.
I too have been burnt...
I found your web site full of good information on Amway. My sister today was approached by one of her friends trying to sell her on the idea of Amway. Based on my own research into the company, I think it's all a bunch of baloney and full of false promises and dreams.
Keep up the good work!
I've read most of the pages in your site and I think you do a fairly good job of just presenting facts that many people who attempt to deceptively build an Amway business would hide. However, I wonder if the site would be more valuable if it had a more neutral tone to it; by stating your position as a former distributor and anger with some of the problems you've encountered - you create strong feelings to one side or the other with your readers. For the most part, I am not discouraged in my attempts to build a business by anything in your site or Jeff Probst's either (which was also very good) because I guess I was fortunate to be sponsored into a very open line of sponsorship. The leadership (including Emeralds and even EDC's) has always been very open about the System money (which seems to be the biggest point of controversy) and the fact that this is a very real business with about the same success rate as any other business. Remember, only about 2 - 5% of the entire U.S. population achieves an income over $100,000 - Amway is just another opportunity to do so (it does not change the odds - only decreases the start-up costs). If you choose to respond to this e-mail; I would enjoy a continued dialog with you - It's good to get input and ideas from someone who is "educated" about our system -and- not "pro-everything". So, I'll offer a starting point: The odds of success. Besides what I've mentioned above, I was "encouraged" by your analysis of the SA-4400 and the fact that 3% of "active" distributors who sponsor others becoming DDs. It may seem like a small percentage -but- the "Plan" shows only 1 in 78 being DD right. You have pointed out that actually 1 in 33 who sponsor someone accomplish it. That's very encouraging - Thank You. (Does this logic make any sense?) Hope to hear back from you,
I just want to complement on your web site. There are so many negative and biased sites on any given topic, it is hard what to believe in. I trust your style.
I am currently involved in Amway, and my experience has been- so-so. My uplline are honest people, and they make no unreasoned claims about this business. I guess I am lucky. And no, I have made no money as of yet. Since April of '98. I am cautious. I like my upline but always question their motives. But then again, I am questioning yours; I question everybody whom I come in contact with.
I think too much. It is said, in one of the seminars I went to recently, that "don't think too much when building your business!" In a way that is true, people who do think too much always believe hidden agendas when there are none and things like that. But we all have to, or we'll end up with no money and freedom to spend it on.
What would I like from you is information. The stuff you have in your web page is nice, but what about the comparisons of the '60's Amway distrributor to the '90's. How are they really alike. Would a '60's distribuastor join the plan of the '90's? What would I like to do is gain enough information on this group, so in 2 - 5 years, or whenever I feel I'm being deceived, to write my experience's with Amway.
Yes, as of now, they are not negative. I am being treated fairly and they tell me to go to the functions which I can go to. So I have honest people in my uplline. I bet you didn't. One way or another, I will make money and be successful. I love to write, and am very bright, you probably can't tell that now, because I had too many malt liquors tonight.
Anyway, please, if you can, write back to me and tell me what I have to do about this great book idea. I love your site and maybe, just maybe, I'll have a web-site just like yours one day! Promoting my book: The truth about Amway. Look, I don't want to stir up trouble where there is none. If I fail in this business and feel it was my fault, then I'll just move on; but if I feel the diamond's or emeralds are lying and cheating, then why not- people deserve to know the truth- the factual truth, not what I want to believe. Or if it is not worth it, I won't. But you're the only emerald that I know; I can't go to my current uplline about this!
Ok, sorry I took so long. I do hope to hear from you soon. Good luck on your site and in life.
I'm glad you responded to my first e-mail. I apologize if I got off track on the odds of success - I was starting with the numbers you quoted from the SA4400 (3% of distributors who sponsor others reach the DD level). If you now contend less than 1% qualify as DD annually (I have no way of knowing), how did you arrive at the new figure? I was also puzzled by your comment that I had a 99% chance of losing thousands of dollars chasing the Ama-dream. In the 1 year that I have been working at this, I have only "lost" $5 or $10 a month here and there. If you are referring to the monies paid for BSM's and functions, I just take that out of my profits. Again, Amway is no different than any other business - I could not afford to mortgage the house chasing a dream - if I weren't making at least enough money to cover the costs of doing business I would be forced to give up and move on to other things. So, I am not "losing" money - I have a choice (1) cut expenses such as BSM's and functions and be happy with earnings of under $6,000 annually or (2) settle for breaking even the first year or two in order to achieve the income the successful Diamonds have. BTW - If I were to give up the Amway business, I would have to find something else to do - Obviously I did not feel satisfied with my job's potential for meeting all my desires or I would never have started. Got any other ideas for a business I could start on as little overhead and without having to quit my job to build? What is the linear income consulting business you referred to? Also, I would like a more in-depth opinion on other pages of your website, but I can't find it. You mentioned you were moving to a new site, but the old site is gone and only indicates that it is being moved? Thanks for maintaining this dialog with me, P.S. You mentioned something about listening to my up-line in connection with my comments. You should know I've already blown 4 people above me out of the business. I do not spout other people's ideas - I am an Auditor by profession and naturally very skeptical and inquisitive. Rest assured, I take none of their information at face value and any dialog I have with you comes from my own thoughts.
I was an Amway distributor for 1yr. Everything that you have said about the organization is TRUE. Our direct distributor we nothing but out for themselves. They were always pushing the books, tapes and functions. They said it was our "professional development", but they themselves had very little in the way of any business sense. Pushing Amway tapes, books and functions was just another way of generated PV/BV so that there next level within the AMWAY organizations can be reached. Just another scam to rip people. Thanks for reaffirming my decision to quit AMWAY for good
Hello.
I've written to you before, if you don't remember me, that is OK. I understand. First, I want to apologize for calling you an emerald. I hope that did not offend you, I know it would to me.
I just want to share a bit of information I've got at a "Life changing seminar" I went to about a month ago. At that "function," we were given a new system for our Amway "Business." We are to pass out 90 tapes in 90 days, and by that time, in a 5% success rate, I'll be financially independent!!! Or, should I say the diamonds and directs and all the other "Business people" would be financially independent.
Actually we only had to buy 10 tapes, at a grand total of $75.50!!! And not to mention our important tape of the month.
So that is our tatic. Or, should I say their tatic. I am not impressed of the money being made on those 10 extra tapes. It is funny that the leader's didn't make us buy all 90 tapes!!! Maybe next time. If I hear anymore Amway jokes in the future, I'll write you up. I'm sorry if they are not funny or if you heard them before... actually, I'm quite sure you did.
Good luck on your freedom of speech, and truth.
Today I read your link to Norm Brodsky's article, I find it intriguing that there are 2 views so opposite of each other. 1) MLM businesses (even legitimate companies - I realize the vast majority are designed to milk the market and fail within 24 months) can only make a person successful if he/she uses other people to their detriment and his benefit. vs. 2) MLM offers the opportunity to help a few other people make some good money (forget the millions garbage) while you build a successful business where a traditional business truly uses other people - you see in a traditional business if I work my tail off to make a six-figure income all I do is take other's peoples money, period. I help no one gain financial independence or gain positive association and simply get them to buy things from me. Final thoughts on the odds of success in Amway (I'm bored with this topic): You're logic that 2% of the "active" distributors (41% of total) qualify as DD; hence <1% is not sound because without sponsoring anyone a person is nothing more than a customer. With that logic, McDonald's is really laughable because 80 billion people buy their products yet only a few thousand ever made a decent income off the franchise. . . Don't confuse a distributor building a business with someone who buys a kit to get wholesale prices. The only logical way to judge the success rate is to divide the number of DD's into the number of people who honestly tried to become a DD (those who sponsor others and even that is not true since some sponsor 1 or 2 just to help a family member but there is no way to calculate that) . . . Best I can figure that figure is 3% from what you pointed out in the SA-4400 and that is 3 times better than the odds portrayed in the Plan (1 in 78). Your opinion please: Why are people in general so much more eager to be ripped off by giving up their hard earned money to buy something you're selling than to open-mindedly "look" at a possible plan to increase their income. Thanks for thoughts,