Charles: I thought you might find this interesting. It's a dialog I had with the author of the website "Amway, Just the Facts, No More Fiction." Enjoy!
Subject: RE: Profit from the System
No...becuase he'd be right. It's none of my business and I don't care what they make of it.
At 02:33 PM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote: I feel fine. I tell you what. Why don't you ask your diamond for some proof? My guess is he will tell you it's none of your business. If you really want the truth, and not some story by a diamond who has a vested interest, you will find it.
>Subject: RE: Profit from the System
>
>Look, he was speculating under oath on what Dexter made. He just gave
>it his best guess. Dexter Yager pays $40,000 in income taxes a day.
>Internet makes half of that a day. At his income bracket, the feds would
>take almost half his income. So do the math, that's about one-fourth
>of his income. It is unbelieveable to me that you don't see this. People
>have been complaining about the system for YEARS now. It doesn't take
>10 years for the feds to look into something fraudulent. They would have
>checked it out by now and still, all there is is a bunch of mad people
>saying there is fraud here. I'm done discussing this with you. I respect
>your opinion...and I concede to you if it makes you feel better.
>Going back and forth like this isn't doing anything for any of us.
>
>At 09:46 AM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Why would Brig Hart have said that?
>
>Subject: RE: Profit from the System
>
>Dexter never said that. In fact, Dexter has NEVER made any statements
>about his income. 80% of his income doesn't come from anything to do
>with Amway...it comes from the hotels and restaraunts and things
>like that that he has bought. You are going on an estimate by Brig
>Hart....he is the only one who said about 70% of Dex's income is in
>tools and he said he was guessing.
As a matter of record, Dexter Yager was interviewed by Forbes magazine in Mar 1985 and admitted that 2/3's of his income came from his motivation business....so much for the information sources of the "Ultimate Online Resource on Amway."
>
>At 03:52 PM 3/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>You didn't mention anything about Dexter Yeager's assertion that 70% of
>his income is made from the "system," and not from Amway. Which diamond
>is right?
>
>Do you want more proof?
>
>Subject: Re: Profit from the System
>
>No I wasn't. How is it that you say my diamond lied but this Emerald
>is not. How do you judge the facts? By a few checks that anyone can
>write? >By a pay schedule anyone can put up? How do you know the
>Emerald is credible and not my diamond? The only reason you think that
>is because it is negative....people believe negative because positive
>about anything is just too good to be true.
>
>At 10:31 AM 3/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>NEW INFORMATION: I now officially have the facts from a HUGE
>DIAMOND in Dexter's organization on how much is made off the tapes.
>There is no bonus system. There is no profit made from any of the books.
>All Directs and above that have so many tapes (I don't know how many)
>flowing through their groups and are above 7500 PV make about 10 cents
>off each tape.
>
>You were lied to. Check out http://207.201.152.53/ for proof. Even
>dexter himself has said that 70% of his income comes from the "system"
>of tapes, books, and functions. Dexter's tape duplication business
>sells cassette copies for sixty cents, in quantity. There's no good
>reason, other than profit, to charge five or six bucks per tape.
>
I got into Amway two months ago. I paid the 160 bucks, and got a ton of supplies. I live in an apartment with my husband, his brother, a friend, and two cats. Amway has given my husband and me something to do together. I don't have a lot of time or money, and recently didn't have much to spend on groceries. Usually, I spend about four hundred (minus smokes)350 (minus kitty litter) 340 (minus pop) 250 on groceries a month. for 180, I had enough food to get me through the month without going to the grocery store. It's hard because my husband and I are the only one's with a car, and so, if there's shopping to be done, it's always us, and it's us carrying up all the groceries for four for a month up the stairs. It's us trying to find a parking spot in a town that has barely any. I've been very happy with Amway. I paid for my product, because that's what the 160 is for, and some literature. So really I only spent 25 dollars to get into it, and it saves me time. I got a couple people under me now, and some that are interested and some that make fun of me, and some that will not join. I won't even ask them.I won't badger anyone. I may ask them if they want me to talk to them about it, and if they do, awesome. But recently I was doing my bills, and I saw on my bank statement that I got forty dollars from amway. Forty dollars at a time when you're wondering how you're gonna buy lunch on thursday and friday is enough to make you glad you joined.
I've gone past the breaking even point now. I haven't made any enemies. I don't expect to be making the 1800 dollars a month that my sponsor is making. But now, everything I do is extra. No one promised me anything,except that if I stayed with it I would get my initial money back and then it's a matter of work and chance. I wasn't lied to. I got to eat lunch on thursday and friday. And according to my statement I have a little extra money to carry over into April. How is this bad?
I have greatly enjoyed the information on your web site. I was wondering if the organazational chart is available on your website or elsewhwere. Also I was trying to find information on the Don Storms branch upline to the Dexter Yager branch. Thanks again for the time you have invested in this web page.
Tel me Charles; Why would someone invest time in a non-profit website that discloses information about a potentially unlimited business oportunity? The truth is your in another business aren't you? Your trying to gain new prospects . . The funny thing is, if you invested more time in your business and less time in this website, you could grow and have integrity too. Lord know without integrity your business won't have solid grounding. It will fall as soon as the intelligent Americans (that you underestimate) find you out. About the Emerald, it has been found out that he was not an emerald, he was in Amway for a few years. Didn't do what it took to get the job done, then quit with a low self esteem and lack of motivation (except for the revenge of Amway) A multi-trillion dollar business oportunity that has been proven to work.
I ofcourse have the instructions on that success. If your interested, please call . . . you have nothing but potential.
Hello Charles, I wanted to take the time out to thank you for putting so much work into your web site. My wife and I are currently building the business ( just getting started really) and have been designing a web site for that purpose. We actually transferred out of the yager organization into another group called INA and have been really pleased with it. I read the Probsts site and am really glad we got out of that organization. I think that a lot of the bad publicity that Amway has gotten has been correct but mostly due to the organizations and not Amway itself. I do wish that they had taken a more forceful role in the past of correcting these problems. It would make our job a lot easier.
As for the corporation, they are strictly first class in everything they do. We do have a couple of Amway nightmare stories but those are all traced back to being in the yager group. I cannot emphasize how different and professional INA is compared to the cult like activities of the Yager organization. I do feel that the next generation of devos' and van andels are really trying to improve Amway';s public Image.
Sorry for the long letter. I am interested in maintaining a dialog with you as we build our business. Again I commend you on your fact based site. So many of the sites about Amway are just spiteful and lack any facts. You did a great job.
Another email from the same person
I am having trouble finding the site you referred me to but I have seen it on the internet ad will check it out later today. I did read our story and can sympathize. The last time I heard the term nite owl used was when we were in yagers group. You know, if you take in to account the sleep deprivation that you get at those functions it does resemble a cult. All you need is a Twinkie based diet and it would fit the description. Luckily we got out before we had to travel across the country to go to one of those functions. I am trying to persuade my upline diamond to let me encode some streaming video of our recent leadership function to give people a good idea of what a professionally held meeting looks like. They even had dinner and dancing in the evening session! Here's a fact for your page though - all Amway distributors are terrible dancers!!! Regardless of race or religious background! While I understand the problems you had with your business I haven't had them since we switched LOS'. We have frequently missed the 100pv mark and haven't overbought to make up for it. At first glance a lot of the products look very expensive - But we fond tat the concentration does make up for it in a lot of cases. In others ( eg nutrilite) they are very high quality. And in some ( e.g. nutripet) they are neither and are not worth it. Of a more interesting note is the fact that I have a couple of nice, supportive, anti Amway in laws who just bought a 32 inch TV from the catalog and saved a hundred or so bucks from the retail stores they were shopping at. Here is what we are shooting for in the future.
1) marketing to maid services, carpet cleaners and nursing homes. My father in law is a facilities manager at a local nursing home and when he reviewed the office catalog, told me that the products were about 10-17% higher than what he pays. That was at retail so I have some leeway.
2)signing up customers on the core line automatic shipment program. This has been very profitable for a lot of folks in our group.
3) and of course goin for the big diamond ring!!
I'll let you know what kind of progress we have in these areas. You can also check out my web site at www.2xtreme.net/jscott and check out the links to money and other magazines. Also, if you go to the bottom of the visitor page you can click on the password hyperlink and type in "articles" to check out the few articles on the net that I have found that are kind to Amway. On a funny note, when I first found your page with the links to the various articles about amway I saved it as "positive amway article page" in my favorites section. HA!
>
>Heck..this ain't long..I've gotten monster emails from some people :)
>
>By all means keep me posted on your progress. Actually I have nothing
>against the Amway business per se, just the unethical tactics and
>techniques that most AMO's practice. If a person is aware of all the
>things that go on and still decide to build an Amway business, that's
>just great. I think someone like you is in a better position because
>you are already aware of the mind control techniques and what rules
>and regulations are being totally ignored by most distributors,
>(especially the Retail Sales Rule). I hope that if you are told to
>ignore the rules, regulations, and code of ethics, that you will
>question it.
>
>One thing I would suggest to you is visit a friend's web-site who was
>involved with INA. The web-site is Amway - An Insider's Perspective. I
>have a link to it on my links page. It's toward the bottom of all the
>links. He has numerous email from other distributors who were involved
>in INA and a section called INA Info. I really think it would be
>beneficial for you to read the information on Jason's web-site.
>
>Good Luck
This was received at the end of the month
Charles, after doing more extensive research on Amway we have decided to call it a quits. We will still chase the same dream but not in the mlm business. Attached is the letter I sent to my upline diamond who has been nothing but gracious and interested in our reasons for quitting. We are looking at starting a nursery for heirloom seedlings or an online newsletter. We aslo have really benifited from the tools, we would never have gotten the entrepreneur bug without it. My wife and I will continue to buy the same kinds of books and tapes at our local book store. sort of a literary kick in the butt for us to do more with our lives.
Well it is time for some well needed rest.
Chosen, here are the reasons we are quitting. 1) Amway is different for different distributor groups. The Probst's web site goes more into detail here about the Yager organization and the problems there. I think that Amway needs to take more control and present the same basic business to everyone. 2) Cutting out the middleman and cost per use should result in lower prices, but frequently does not. See spray and LOC are good buys but other products like dish drops have ranked last in consumer reports, even when concentration was figured in. And it was more expensive than Dawn at 0.28 cents per oz vs dawn at 0.08 cents per oz for Dawn. Seems to be a common thread in many mlm's, offering products at a disount through a shortened distribution chain ( compared to retail) yet charging much more than your local store. 3) A large portion of income comes from the sale of tools and seminars, not products and services. The books are great as well as many of the tapes but the income on the tools is never discussed in the plan. 4) Amway's vision of the future and electronic commerce are not competitive with sites on the internet now that sell the same products at a lower price. Spree.com is a good example of a site that offers lower prices AND still gives a referral-based bonus. While this will probably never represent real income potential like Amway does, it is still valid competition that cannot be ignored. Especially as more people get onto the internet and home shopping becomes more acceptable to the public. We have really learned lot from our experience with Amway, the Yager group and INA as well. We have the entrepreneurial bug and will use our knowledge and higher self-confidence to start a more conventional online business. * and I will miss you and Mely and the whole INA team as well, but feel that we cannot continue when our hearts are not in it anymore. We have had our doubts about certain aspects of this business from the beginning but have really been overwhelmed by our research as of late. I hope this helps Chosen. If you ever need help with your web site I would be happy to lend a hand. * and I feel like we owe you a great debt for the training and first class support that you and Mely have given us in our Amway journey. Rest assured that we will put it to good use.
Thanks for everything. Give Mely our best. P.S. I lost the hyperlinks to all of the sites that you requested when my computer crashed and am unable to send them to you. Sorry
I am getting some advertisement instead of Jeff's site. Did the Amway police get to him? As a former distributor (well I'm still a distributor but we no longer spend our money on "system" stuff) I saw him speak at a mini-rally. He really is an emerald. His honesty on his site impressed me.
I have read some of the letters sent to you from other Amway Distributors, and am deeply sorry things didn't work well for you. I am also sorry you have such a negative outlook on the business now, it seems to work well for me. I haven't yet reached direct or even silver, however I am working hard building my business (which is required if you expect to make money). If it is ok with you, I will continue to keep in touch monthly or bi-monthly to let you know my progress. I have been in the business for 2 months now and I have already sponsored one person. My person has other people very interested and we plan to show them the business plan later this week. Concerned with negativity on the internet,
I think That you are a selfish person that want to have every thing come to you in the form of a handout. You discredit the business because you have not done anything in it, nor have met any one that has done good in it. This business in one of which of which people who cannot make a living with a job can do it with this. So go suck a cow and get a life
I joined Amway a little over two years ago ...I lasted a very short time and never attended a function -- except for one held very locally. I realized a short while after I located a seat among the masses attending this particular function that a woman ( a wife of a Emerald upline) was about to lecture on her "life" and how "decent" she is now that she and her husband are able to spend all of their time raising their children. The lecture was offensive, punctuated with stupid, assinine comments and more condescending than most lectures I endured as a child in Catholic School. I never returned to another function and my "upline" and I had a strained relationship for quite a while....fortunately, he joined me and left this ridiculous business behind. We might be working 40 hours a week now (instead of the 5-10 alleged to be ALL that's necessary in the Amway World) but our consciences are clear and we're not embarassed to enter a room where those we do business with are in attendance. Perhaps this isn't the easiest way to get rich, but, for some reason, I'm so much happier :)
No name please.....still know a lot of people who continue to believe...we've had our share of arguments and frankly, until they choose to see this program for what it is ....my arguments fall on deaf ears... :) Thanks for listening
I sent you a mail a couple of month ago,were I asked you some question about Amway. I have been in contact with Terri Mudrak in Amway and got some answers. I give you these Q and A in a file. My questions to you:
Are Amway telling me the truth?, Can they stop the activity?,
What are you advising me to do?
>
> We are not authorizing any distributor activity in Sweden.
> Amway is very concerned with the possible misrepresentation of our
> opportunity in your country.
>
> We would recommend that you do not become involved with anyone
> who claims to represent Amway in Sweden. They are doing this in
> violation of Amway's Rules of Conduct.
>
> In your note, you referred to unauthorized pre-launch
> activity. We must assume from your note that you have been
> approached. Please do not become involved at this time, we do not
> have any time frame in order to open in Sweden.
>
> Thank you for your inquiry. If you have any additional
> comments or questions, feel free to contact me.
>
>
>
> I am glad to hear of your interest in Amway, unfortunately, we have
> not made any announcements as to when we may open there. The activity
> you have encountered is unauthorized by Amway and can permanently
> damage any possible relations between Amway and the government in
> Sweden.
>
> In order to offer the best possible and continual service in Sweden we
> need to open in an organized and authorized manner. This includes the
> legal research that needs to be done prior to the opening as well as
> contracts with the government.
>
> If you could share with us what you have encountered there, names of
> individuals, meeting places etc., we can have this researched and
> possibly stopped before any further damage is created.
>
> We appreciate any help you can provide in this matter.
>
> Best Regards,
> Terri Mudrak
> International Coordinator
> International Inquiries
> Amway Corporation
> phone: (616)787-7552
> fax: (616)787-4726
> Amvox: (616)246-5004
> E-mail: International_Inquiries@Amway.com
> Internet: http://www.Amway-abn.com
>
> Hi.
> My name is *.
> When are you going to open Sweden for Amway business?
> There are many people now here in Sweden that are working with
> your company.
> They say that this is a prelaunch.
> They are conected with the Netherlands and the products
> and the whole business is coming from that country.
> If I should join I want to be certain that, Sweden will
> be opened and when.
> The people that are working with this are claiming that
> when Sweden is opened (and now) you dont have to be a
> Direkt distributor to qalificate to the 4% bonus on
> your breakaways.
> If you have 3 breakaway legs it would be enough.
> They say that it is because this is Amways new bonus-plan.
> Please answer my questions quickly.
> With regards
>
>
I recently have been approached by an Amway Distributor who is promising me a life of gold and riches. Wary of the Amway propaganda I turned to the Internet to do a little research and came across your site. It's a pleasure to know that there is another side to the story. My question to you is: Do you have any suggested questions I should be asking an Amway Distributor in order to get him to fumble an answer proving that Amway really sucks? Please keep up the good work!
I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for providing the information contained in your website. Like many, I had the "opportunity" of a lifetime presented to me. The presentation was made at a time when I was "down-and-out", and subseqeuently went readily into the Amway quagmire. I was one of the lucky ones; I didn't loose my shirt. I don't recal precisely what I did loose; spiritually speaking I paid a high price. Financially, it wasn't signifigant; I was fortunate to have a family that supported me with "tough-love" and healthy "reality checks", while I was presenting the plan and drawing my silly circles. I wish you the best of luck with this webpage. Should it spare one person the headaches so many of us have suffered via the "plan", then it is worth every "byte."
My husband is very interested in joining Amway. After attending a seminar/rally this weekend, the words cult and mass hysteria come to mind. Along with bull****, pyramid scam, and many others. Can you give me any advice on gentle discouragement? I will definitely have him look at your very informative page, but as you know, he has been forwarned about the negativity. I know you do not claim to be an expert of any kind....They really pushed all the right buttons.
Any help will be appreciated.
I must commend you on your site... it was very good reading! I was once an Amway distributor myself... until the first renewal date! I was in a year and blew $1000.00 over all and never got one check! My sponsor also quit after 5 years and about $7,000.00! A mutual friend of ours quit after 15 years, $17,000.00 down, and a lifetime supply of SA-8!!!
[snipped an ad for yet another mlm]
It sounds like you had a bad experience with Amway.
That's okay, many people have. Can't help it that there's jerks out there. What I can't understand is why you don't just let it be. Why are you expending so much energy (It takes a lot of concentrated effort to make a whole web site) to make sure the whole world knows about your failure? Why not let people figure it out for themselves or is it true that a crab in the bucket will try to pull the other crabs back down when they make an attempt to climb out. Why are you so insistent on stealing other people's dreams? Get over it and get on with your life.
ITS FREEDOM TO SPEAK. BUT WHY DON'T YOU GO THROUGH ALL THE EXAMPLES AND ORGANIZATIONS AND PEOPLE WHERE IT IS GOOD. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE (AND YOU KNOW IT) THAT LOVE WHAT THEY ARE DOING. AND THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE WITH GOOD MOTIVES. IT'S A SHAME YOU GOT SUCH A BEEF !!! IF YOU FAILED COLLEGE, WOULD YOU HAVE THE SAME CONVICTIONS TOWARD HIGHER EDUCATION? YOU KNOW, ETERNITY IS SUCH A LONG TIME TO BE WRONG !!!!
I think we have enough negetive news about jobs these days and if people like you would't have too find the bad in everything we try to do in this world things would be alot better.
There isn't a job in this world that doens't have its down falls but you make of it what you wish I fell it is a good thing for people to want to help other people make money instead of steel it from others like most jobs a boses do this day and age. So do as you must to prove to the world that it is a bad business. But I don't feel helping each of us make money is bad and we all get part of the money sooner or later as a group. Your loss or gain. Someone Who Cares about People not just Myself
My name is * and I'm from India. I've been reading your articles very closely and a lot of interesting points have been noted. As you are probably aware Amway has opened the Indian market. My question to you is do all the stats that you reel out apply to any new market or is based purely on the American scene. Do you see an opportunity in making a fair deal of money in the 3 to 5 year period in a market like India where Amway has just launched? Your comments please
Thanx