Site Visitor E-Mail Sep 2003
Last update 12/22/2003
I poured my heart and soul and money into Amway for several years. I made it to Direct status and was stuck there for 3 years never able to push past that mark. I spend 10's of thousands of dollars on books, tapes, functions, seminars, opens, rallies, standing order tape of the week (of which I took multiple per week), standing order book of the month, and many, many other expenses. I too saw several people doing the same thing with the hope that if they continued to do these things and continued to work hard they would see the success that was promised. Many people were hurt financially, they lost time, they lost money, they lost friends, and they lost family that didn't agree.
I have since moved on. I did find another company, Melaleuca: The Wellness Company. Even though I was burned by Amway and very skeptical I decided to try it out. I found it was very different and didn't require any of the books, tapes, functions, seminars, opens, rallies, meetings, and I didn't get the rejection, and I didn't have to overcome the daily failure. After about 1 years I was able to quit my job and now I am one of the top people in the company. I haven't worked any other job in 3 years and I've made nearly $500,000 in the last few years. Would you be interested in hearing how I've done this and how I've helped a lot of others do this? With Warmth and Sincerity,
I have written you before, keep up the good work.
I wanted to let you know that on your hall of shame page there should be a lot of other diamonds who faked at least 1 leg.
Here are a few I know of:
Roy King (charlotte NC) sponsored by Ken and Gail Craven (well adopted by them for tool reasons) Ken and Gail are sponsored by Paul and Debbie Miller(played football together)
Anyway I found out that Roy gave his frontline directs money to buy over direct every month for 6 months so he could go diamond. Supposedly he received his OK from Paul MIller.
Well the directs did it then after he went diamond he wanted all his money paid back. The frontline directs did not know it was a loan. A few of them wanted to transfer out of his group but he wouldn't let them. I know one or two quit maybe more.
I knew Roy King real well and actually thought of him as a very respectable guy, but after running into his direct who told me this I was floored.
You should put him on your did not requalify list as well, I don't think he requalified his 2nd year.
Mickey Hamlett went off the deep end when the big dreaded Y2K came he bought a farm and ammo and food and holed up in Northern North Carolina. He went double diamond I heard by P.V. Pooling, which is what a lot of Diamonds did in the old days.
I remember he came to Charlotte NC for a rally and stood by the door to make sure everyone paid and was accounted for before he went to speak...you see he got all money that was taken in after the room cost 400 people X $5.00 = $2000 - $250 for the room = $1750 to speak.
When a distributor asked to see his Rolex watch that Micky always showed people his response was "buy your own"
The excited distributor just walked away dejected.
Now I must tell you that in the Larry Winters line he taught that no one was to buy their way to a pin... If anything he wanted people to hold back so they would go solid and never fall back.
That is why he has had maybe 2 diamonds fall back, although I know he has had a lot of lower pins fall back.
The PV pooling and other shady stuff was preached against heavily.
I think in your analysis you might want to point out the cost of a major Coliseum function. What most people do not realize is a city will give you a coliseum free (Greeensboro nc does) So lets say we go there and pay $125 per person x 20, 000 people = $2.5 million Now that is divided into paying emeralds and higher a portion based on their ticket sales.
The do have to pay Bill Britts event team to set up the stage and sound...for the tapes to come out later...they are not allowed to use anyone else to set up sound and record the event. So you can see the reason they try to put on 4 big coliseum events a year per EDC. BIG BUCKS The city makes money from concessions, parking, hotel taxes. You should really put a special section on the Coliseum money maker figures.
A rally is usually 500-1000 people at about $11-12.00 the room usually costs $500 you do the math.. A lot of the left over money (if a emerald speaks) is given to the upline diamond for a "development fund" If a diamond speaks they get anything over the cost.
Hope that helps I spent 12 years in the "biz" I was in on a lot of inner circle meetings... I sponsored 50 people went direct with only 3 legs, 1 leg was the strongest.
I never missed a meeting, I listen to all the tapes bought extra, I met 10-20 people a week, did 5 QI's a week on average, read 3 books a month, drove over 100,000 miles a year, and always counseled upline....
I did not make emerald...
I watched several of my upline get into affairs I saw a huge amount of people hurt and quit. So I decided to open a franchise and work during the day(while my kids are at school) and come home at night to love them and help them grow. Keep up the good work.
I don't get it , Whets the point of this sight it only makes quixtar or the other business Amway look good . As I have heard on the tapes these people claim to have a lower rate then the general public or corporate world not to never have it happen to them . Look at the film and music world and yet no one can deny people are still respected there sometimes . By listing them your only proving their points when people do there math . But for you to get your points made or your rocks off by trying to show peoples unfortunate situations is sad . Not to mention for someone who has it in their own family tree.
Dean Kosage WWDB Diamond
Subject: Re: what is the point of this sight
The point of the site is to provide more information for people. What they do with it is their business.
I found it unfortunate when I was looking at the business that I had to buy a kit just to get a list of the rules.
No I really did write you . I am not on the web a whole lot but was teaching my 7yr daughter how to look up her mom who is now a cop and me on the web and we found your sight talking about who's been divorced. It was her b-day on nov 26th . I have seen many people come and go in many business's and found every industry can have good or bad people in them. Its common sense to most of us who lead people. I know you can not have only have met bad people in my industry. Why you would find it unfortunate to have to buy a kit to get a list of the rules is odd to me, because you have work at a company to get their list of some of there rules . However a go-getter can always find out or just ask someone to show you. I know many people who wouldn't mind showing you. Did you really ask the people in your old upline
? Any way it was just odd to me that you would be posting that kind of info but I was able to use it ( as you say ) to show my daughter how many people are diamonds and above and compare the aver divorce rate to the restaurant business that I was in before and the police force her mom is now in to prove my point that its lower . Nothing is full proof and I am proud of our results . I think I have contacted you before and tried to see if you could believe everyone in Quitar or Amway did the same thing and ran there business the same. There are a lot of jerks out there and racial people who love to group people together because of skin color or beliefs or associations , before I judged you I was just personally checking to see if that's what you where doing . Every time I have meet a crtic online they have never been strong enough to take me up on my offer of flying out and talking to see if I'm guilty of the bad things or a good example of not mis-leading people and working hard . Plus it's the best way for my kid to see what I do. Have I ever offered that to you ? Anyway its not a big deal just curious that day , and my kid wanted to ask this man why he had the sight so I said ( lets ask ) .
Is Bob and Jo crisp divorced? At one time they were my sponsor, I would like to think that what I told amway led to there down fall. Jim
Yes, although they might have gotten it after they left Amway.
What had you told Amway?
I don't want to say to much, basically what I told Amway was how Bob Crisp passed PV down line to create direct distributors so he would qualify for triple diamond. I was looking on line and seen that Dick and Dawn Hopper also got a divorce, they were down line from Bob. I remember when they made diamond, Dick was a delivery driver for Coke in a small town here in Oklahoma and his story really motivated us around here because we thought if he could do it we could to, I wonder if Hoppers diamond was created from up line? Man I thank back to 1980-83 and how many people got hurt, at one time I thought that Bob and Jo Crisp were like a God, sure opens up old wounds talking about Bob Crisp and his organization (Winners Circle International)
I have read many stories on your website from readers' responses and former distributers and I am so relieved to know there are many others who feel as I do about the "Quixtar Dream Stealers". Who wants to give up their quality time with quality activities with family and friends who truly love you and hobbies that one can really enjoy and enhance their own and others' lives with to become an AmParrot? My husband has filed for divorce, due to some other problems and for me some of it had to do with his addictive involvement with Quixtar. I will come back with more details later. It is likely a blessing my husband has left with his credit card, Amvox, tapes, books and tape parrot talk. I just needed to vent. My story is similar to many others who see the money going out the window with nothing to show for it. Thanks for your website. Please do not publish my email address.
I thought you might be interested to know that the word being passed in the Winters organization (Larry Winters (EDC) is a personal leg of Paul Miller's) is that Debbie is no longer building the business with Paul. She has "earned the right to retire" said my upline when I asked point blank about Paul and Debbie. This was to explain why Debbie is not mentioned in the Miller Profile of Success. No one has explicitly denied that they're in divorce proceedings.
Scott, all congratulations for fighting this BS from 50megs.com and a clear attempt to control and stifle free speech. So much for all the cries of "freedom" at functions. Yeah, as usual it is freedom with someone's exception. Welcome to the human race.
Feel free to post or recycle any of these comments, edited with context i nmind, along with my FIRST NAME ONLY too if you wish. -----------------------------------------
If people like those who run the Quixtar sponsorship organizations had their way in US politics, the US would be the Christian version of Saudi Arabia with the Bible as the Constitution. Oh they will deny that of course, but try expressing any dissent to the "System" created and prospering further in it.
The leaders of the sponsorship organizations are not evil people at heart --mostly narrow-minded and greedy. Then again so were those Germans who somewhat blindly followed the Nazis for that matter.
And this message is coming to you from a Christian too (though I am in disagreement with most Christians for various Biblical reasons).
In 2003, I have actually made my Quixtar business slightly profitable for the first time ever. I do not have any downline IBOs anymore either. There is little point in having them without some system to support you I would agree.
How'd I do it? I used and sold some products to clients and have one member making purchases. Above all, I slashed my expenses. Any "veteran IBO" could do this and make a little money. I did not spend one more dime in 2003 on any of those items to feed the hidden, undisclosed big business of the sponsorship organisations found in the books, tapes and functions. I still invest in educational and training materials in my other (profitable) businesses, but I do not invest anymore in those products from the sponsorship organizations.
Those "motivational and training products" work well for awhile for an IBO with no business experience starting out, which is usually the prime target of the Quixtar business opportunity anyway. In the end though, one either chooses to build that business along with the system, with all the holy justifications and preaching, or one just quietly steps away from all that unnecessary noise and moves to some other business that actually generates a NET profit after initial investment in training and equipment.
I would be alright with everything if the sponsorship organizations just openly admitted to building two businesses and gave EVERY IBO an equal chance to profit in BOTH businesses, but that just will not happen under the current Quixtar Business Rules so everything will continue to remain as is behind the scenes with the self-professed holy greedy leaders of the sponsorship organisations.
Randy Sciliano is currently operating his "business" from Cincinnati, OH. My husband is in his organization and is heading the family for bancrupcy.
You have to pay $80 month to use his office.
You must attend 2 brainwashing meeting a week. Cost $7 a piece. You must buy 2 tapes a week (that's the only way to make in the business) Cost $7.50 a piece. What a scam.
Your Website is absolutely ludacris; I cannot believe you wasted so much of your time in putting it together. Before becoming involved in Quixtar I ran accross your site. There was nothing in the Attorney General's Description of an Illegal Pyramid that caused me to think of Quixtar System as being affiliated with that definition. Furthermore; I called the office of the Attorney General in which I was told that the Quixtar system is perfectly legal; that creating a community of loyal buyers is perfectly legal and according to Robert Kyosaki this is the best business model for the average person to partake in if they wish to jump quickly to the B Quadrant. I am very happy with the results I am seeing on Quixtar system and unfortunately you were not; because I am sure you were never involved.
We are ex 3% who were going to be the next uk emeralds. Heard it before? Around 3 years ago we were told by our emerald in a small team meeting of 10 people that the De Souzas had been encouraged to leave because they were complaining that the emeralds weren't making enough on the tools so the gods above suggested they leave. We were told that they had tried to set up another business and we were all warned of it. Even though we found it strange we did not probe further well we were to busy on our journey getting rich Ha Ha! by the way we only packed in last year but i'm sure not that long ago the salway tape was promoted. Maybe someone had old stock that happened a lot. Old tapes been sold to us at full price. .Sometimes halfway through it would change to an old recording. hope been of some help . ps we are no longer allowed to be contacted by any of our "friends".
I really need your help. My fiancé is getting into quixtar really heavily. I am really nervous about what this is doing to our relationship. We have never fought about anything until this came along. I hate the company, and can not believe that someone so intelligent would buy into something like this. I know I can't get through to him. God knows I have tried. I was wondering if you could email him and let him know about your experiences. Maybe it would be easier to accept from someone else. Thank you so much for your time.
I had been with Amway/Quixtar since 1995. I had always been loyal and active. In Sept of this year I went to Randy Siciliano and told him that I needed to take a break for a few weeks to get my life together. I was out of money and about to lose my home. I explained all of my reasons to him in detail and he seemed to understand. About 2 weeks later he called me at my place of employment screaming at me b/c I did not pay my rent for the month and told me he was telling everyone "that I am out". I had ordered a book prior to being kicked out which I tried to collect from my upline and he told me that Randy had the book and if I wanted it I needed to go and see him. I spent $50 on a book and have never received it. I have been "loyal" as Randy said I must be for so many years to him and this is how he reacted to me asking for a few weeks off. I didn't realize that being in business for myself could get me "fired" for taking a vacation.
I'm very glad I found your website. I was approached by someone at a retail store in the Atlanta metro area and introduced to Britt Worldwide. I was skeptical about the whole idea so I shared it with my girlfriend who was involved in Amway during college. Unfortunately she fell for the tapes and so forth and thinks it would be a good idea to try it again. However I'm a bargain shopper and I don't see any bargains with the program! I asked the sponsor about meetings and she said I didn't have to attend any but after going to one meeting out of curiosity and meeting with her one on one she began harking about meetings and getting my down line started. My search for more information was due in part to a discrepancy with starting my business. The sponsor told me the IBO startup was $250 while the key speaker used $150 as his module when making the pitch. I'm very distrustful of a "business opportunity" where I have to have a password to get information from a website. If this is such a great opportunity what's with the secrecy? This sounds too much like a cult and this was even mentioned by one of the key speakers at the meeting. I've been dodging the sponsor until I could get more info, you better believe that the next time she calls me I will tell her that I'm not interested in this bargain! I don't know if this will provide any info for you but here is the website and password. www.ibodie.com (winner)
Thanks to you and others who have sites putting out this info!
hey...Scott.. Thanks for the prompt response.. I think I have already made up my mind.. I printed off 157 pages of stuff off the internet...read every line.. When I asked the guy if it was just Amway renamed he said no. That to me is building a business on a lie. He is coming back tomorrow night...I will be giving him all 157 pages, asking him to read it.
I'm sure one can make some money...eventually... but at what expense? I have a 4 yr old son that would be devastated if I had no time for him.. Spending time with him during his childhood is something you can never get back...no matter how many millions they claim that you will make.
Is it true that once you get a lot of people under you and you go through the diamond, ruby...etc.. it becomes more political than anything? That's the impression I'm getting from the things I've read. I would really like your opinion on this question.
I joined the "Team" several years ago when it was still Amway. When it was becoming Team In Focus, we were told that nobody was making any money with Quixtar, and that TIF was contracting with the same product manufacturer that supplies all of the really big-named personal care industry giants, like Paul Masson. AND we were only going to have to sponsor two people in order to make money. But no one had any details. THEN my upline direct came over to my house one night and started drawing all these circles, and telling me that the TIF product line that wasn't available yet would be supported by a payment plan that started out at either 25% or 27% and then slowly reduced down to 3% -- in other words, it was to be the opposite of the Amway plan as far as payment percentages. However, my direct was prompting me to start sponsoring people into TIF for $300 to set up my "group" before the products started to flow. He also insisted that I would be making all kinds of money just for sponsoring people WITHOUT any products... he just insisted that I should get out and start sponsoring people, even though TIF wasn't yet officially launched. I questioned the legality of sponsoring and making money without any products. He insisted it was legal -- "Do you think Marshall Douglas would do anything illegal?" I wasn't convinced, so I laid back.
Then after the TIF website was up, they started using the Quixtar open meetings to promote TIF as the first step in registering into Quixtar. Barry Joye and Marshall Douglas would come to town and talk a bit about "freedom" and then Quixtar.com, and then advise people to sign up into Quixtar by going to the TIF website and following the registration instructions. They were planning to use the Quixtar l.o.s. as the TIF l.o.s. (I think that's what really offended the Quixtar corporation!)
Now, at this point, I was still fairly involved, and I was told all along that there was NO money in the tool system. The money was in the marketing plan, through moving products..., etc.
The diamonds promoted the very first TIF convention in Nashville by promising us that the entire TIF product line would be introduced during that convention. Well, at the very end of the convention, they had made NO mention of any such products. I was told that the reason for that was the diamonds had come to the end of the convention and realized that they had forgotten to talk about the products!!! In other words, it was a collective slip of the memory.
Also, during that convention, we were all advised to buy our MAP packs ($299) to insure our placement in the line of sponsorship. We were promised that each of the TIF diamonds were bringing tens of thousands of distributors EACH into the binary TIF plan, and that there was to be tons of "spill over" down into the binary plan, and that those of us who got into the los first, at the convention, by giving them our $300, would be awarded the majority of the "spill over". Hey, I never saw any such additions to my group -- and I'm still registered as an IBC.
Also, at that convention, John Terhune "interviewed" from stage a lawyer who specialized in MLM's. He was supposedly the national authority and was present at the hearings between Amway and the federal trade commission way back when. John Terhune asked all the right questions to make TIF/MAP pack look good enough to eat. However, at the end of the "interview", the lawyer took a moment to clarify to us in the audience the fact that it is illegal to require anyone to buy a MAP pack as a prerequisite to joining TIF, plus it is illegal to be compensated for selling MAP packs -- as they are NOT products, and are of no value to any retail customer...!!!!!! He advised us to only buy a MAP pack IF we wanted one, that NOT buying a MAP pack could in no way alter our standing in the TIF line of sponsorship...!!! Then he left the stage and Marshall Douglas got on stage and made a joke about how all the diamonds and other leaders had bought their MAP packs -- but it was NOT required -- BUT, all the leaders who were serious about building their businesses had bought one...!!!!! The underlying message was clear, but, no one commented on the lawyer's statements, and the lawyer's speech was never issued as a tape of the week. I wonder why!
The diamonds DID inform us of the tape system payment plan that Dexter Yager had set up and had forced the diamonds to utilize in order to become multimillionaires...! They came across as though Hal Gooch was holding a friggin' gun to their heads making them take the money against their will. My direct (who was privy to the closed meetings) informed me that Marshall Douglas didn't even know about the tool money until the week he walked diamond. His first reaction to his first big check (in the tens of thousands of dollars!) was "What is this and where did it come from?" He called Hal Gooch and Hal told Marshall, "Hey, that's just some extra money that was left-over from your (Marshall's) tool order from last week. Keep it, it's yours." As if, Marshall had sent Hal too much money, and Hal was simply returning the overpayment -- to the tune of several tens of thousands of dollars. Furthermore, when Marshall finally was enlightened to the fact that those weekly overpayment checks were, in fact, part of a secret tool payment plan, he vowed to "fix" that problem the very day he walked diamond.
I asked why Marshall waited so long to come clean? I was told that Hal wouldn't let Marshall tell his group about the tool money, because they were all afraid their group would quit when they discovered they'd been lied to all that time about the tools NOT paying any money to anyone!!!
I was also told that no one makes any money off the tools NOW! (Yea, right!) And that the cost of a tape covers only the cost to manufacture the tape. I don't believe that because I've spoken with a man who actually sells such tapes and he promised me that the cost of manufacturing one of those tapes is somewhere between $0.25 and $1.00 at the most!!!
Personally, I think the whole group is full of people who shovel it, and people who fully accept what's being shoveled at them, because those diamonds are so good at promoting themselves as Hollywood, superstar, lifestyles of the rich and famous types. I don't buy into their load of bs anymore.
The last I heard, John and Pam Marta retired from the Amway business and John bought a real estate office in his native South Dakota. He stated he got in the Amway business to earn his freedom and he was claiming it by retiring.
I sure liked working with them and they always were good to their downline. Integrity rarely found in MLMs.
Couldn't say why he would take up real estate. He's pretty goal-oriented and maybe Amway had taken him as far as it could. My impression was that as a leader in the business, his life was not his own. I know for myself, I found the demands on my time were bordering on detrimental to my home life and I was only a 4000 with only 15 legs and only 5 of those actually working the business. The phone calls from downline at all hours and the speaking engagements at their homes. I extrapolate that to a business of John's size and I think I'd want to get out after a time.too.
My name's Jon. A friend of mine called me up the other day with this "business opportunity", and lo and behold, I get taken along to a "Quixtar" meeting this past Tuesday. Looking on the internet, a lot of info has come up about this attorney general complaint that's being put together against them. Now, I'm no sucker, and definitely wouldn't join this without researching it, so I was wondering if you could tell me what you have on Quixtar. I can tell you this: in the presentation to me a few days prior to the meeting, as well as in the meeting, Amway was never mentioned. Quixtar was only briefly mentioned in the meeting only as a "partner".- the way they get the merchandise shipped. Never was it mentioned that you needed to try to sell merchandise. to others, and during the meeting, I did hear several people near me talking about how they "weren't supposed" to be buying the merch. themselves, but that they did anyway (with the concept being that that's all they did - no sales). I'm a little nervous for my friend, as well as to get into something like this. I'm supposed to be eating lunch with another contact who is going to "answer any questions I have" tomorrow - could you offer any insight? Thanks
To those of you who have unopened tools. You may have some recourse. I spent a lot of time researching the Rules and found that my ulpine World Wide Platinum and Diamond were in violation of numerous Quixtar Rules and the Business Support Materials Agreement.
If you are not receiving WRITTEN notices every 6 months from either your Platinum or above that states "they are monitoring your tool flow" then they are in violation of Amway Rules 109(a)(5)(i)and 109(a)(5)(ii).I used these violations as the basis of my claim for reimbursement for all unused tools that I had been stuck with, regardless
of their age. This is a major issue as these rules have resulted from past law-suites. You can get a refund on money spent for a Major Functions (if unsatisfied) within 30days. Agreement #8 states you can return unopened tools within 180 days.
My upline Platinum and Diamond were also manipulating PV&BV from month to month (as most do) trying and keep their Direct status. This contravenes Rule #107(a)(2)(iii).
The upline pressured us to over stock product and tools, in order to keep their #s and Tool profit up. This violated the 70% Rules that states that you must have 70% of your orders going to downline distributors. As I said I did a lot of research of the rules. This was motivated by pressure from my upline Diamond saying I was in violation of rules and that I should just quietly go away. I am pleased to tell you that I did not go away and I was not in violation. In fact my persistence resulted in the Corporation forcing the Diamond to reimbursed me for over $2000.00 for returned tools and product.
I must add that the Corporation was anything but helpful in resolving these issues. They responded because I was able to put together a very strong and solid claim and threatened to take the Diamond to civil (small claims) court.
The Corporation agreed with me. There were many other issues regarding this propped up dysfunctional World Wide Group Diamond leg. I feel sorry for those who get led astray by these manipulative charlatans.
You are more than welcome to post it if you like. Rod Alcott is the Diamond and Don Alcott is the Ruby Direct.
I negotiated a full 90% refund for tools and 100% refund on product less the % of bonus paid out eg; 6% ---9% This was determined based on the total PV of the returned stock.
There is a clause regarding tools returned at a commercially reasonable price. (decided through negotiation as far as I was concerned, at 100% less 10% restocking)
Here are a couple of the conversations I had with the Distributor relations rep. from Quixtar. I have kept alot if not all of them. They make for interesting reading after the fact. It took many months and a fierce determination to follow this through but I knew I was in the right and refused to be bullied and abused by WWDB and Quixtar. I was reimbursed for all unopened tools regardless of how long I had had them, eg. over 180 days. Tools included Tapes, Books, Videos, Info Packs etc.
Just wanted to pass this on regarding the Jaramillo's that they are no longer in the business at all.
I believe he was booted from Quixtar.
Down below is an e-mail from Kathy Minter-Dyer advising she is now the upline which means Jaramillo did not qualify as a Platinum.
I checked the website and he is gone.
I (am, was, is,) in the Yeager, Wilson,Haugen, someone, someone, Robbins group.
Some conscientious emeralds under Robbins sued Wilson over some BSM practices. Yeager cut us off, everyone scattered . some (we) went to Marker Man. We even I got the silence treatment after confronting one of the principal emeralds over the state of things. You could say I'm a casualty.
I never sponsored anyone. I care for people and didn't like the system as I saw it. Didn't like the freaky circus surrounding this Amway business. I wanted to sponsor folks but sponsor them into what?
I could see that I was spending lots of money on tapes and BSMs. so what? I liked them. if I put as much energy into a degree program as I did studying those tapes who knows where I'd be today. but that's nobody's fault but mine and I still don't know what I want to do.
So why do I renew? for one, the Yeager system did a real number on me, ill admit.
Second, I have some hope that the AmQuix model at its most basic core, without all the ego and greed driven problems of distributorships, is still a workable viable model given the fact that one would have to accept some practices and compromises. (what do you expect to get for $60.00?) Is it possible to fine tune a Quixtar business idology into something universally fair and rewarding? If not financially then socially?
No pins, no diamond worship, no dream weekend/ revivals, no performance based relationships, no tape BSM pushing, no guest motivator sales tables, no hotel plan meetings, no tricky deceptive contact techniques. Take away all that and what's left? Not Amway as I knew it. Just me doing the basics.
I love reading the rules and the sign up form. Those terms listed are the best part of the whole mess. (arbitration costs noted)
Kelly Robbins, my diamond, was a good man. good teacher. not pushy at all. A thinker and philosopher. Not lavish or fake. A genius at building large groups fast. He would try to give you a sample of his motivation rational. Not throw you a tape. He would try to explain the upper level infighting in terms of parables so as to not be direct but not lie either.
I almost want to make diamond so I can walk on a Dexter stage wearing Kelly's last big meeting event tee shirt, "nothing's gonna stop us now". I think Dex would shit.
I've been in the dark for so long now I don't know if he's still kicking.
I want to build this business and enjoy it. but I need to have it all worked out so I'm not leading people into futility. You have a few leaders out of many squatters. That's life.
A leader can drive depth as long as he wants but there isn't enough of him to help everyone go wide and they get stale then fall away. I have accepted that the only way to maintain an Amway income is to continually put in the numbers. I'll never tell anyone that it will just happen on its own. Any thoughts or comments on my ramblings would be appreciated.
Alot is said about the tapes and tools, but let me tell you a little history....
Back in the early 80's when people were getting in like crazy, all of the upline were telling us that we should have 3-4 times the amount of tapes we needed, so we could provide them for all of the new people coming in....
This was fine when you are moving 100 kits per month, but when things slowed down and people were left with tons of tapes + no income, things got ugly....
Britt stood up on stage at a DD meeting and basically said "No more stockpiling of tapes". He said sell what people need and no more... Said if they caught you doing it, there would be disciplinary action... (might of been what happened to Randy Sciliano along with his customized depth building program!)
Before I was a DD, my upline DD asked me if I wanted a box of tapes....I said sure and drove 1 hour to his house to pick up products and he handed me a huge box with about 1000-1500 tapes (not kidding). I was in shock because I thought he meant a shoe box or something. Well, I used those to build my business and he ended up quiting.....
My upline Diamond later told me, the DD tried to send the tapes back to him, but my diamond, refused, because he hadn't gotten them from him, but from his upline Diamond (they went around my diamonds back and stock loaded my DD with tapes).
This type of thing caused lots of problems because people could see the quick dollar revenue and volume with tapes. At the time the tapes were only about $3.50 a piece, so the profit wasn't as high, but someone made some cash!
I just finished spending the better part of four hours reading your website and wanted to share some insight and history that you might not already have, specifically regarding the InterBiz/InterBiz USA lines of sponsorship. I became involved with Quixtar in September 1999 in the Baltimore metro. area. At this time I was in the Yeager line of sponsorship.
My upline Diamond was Jim Pare', his upline Emerald is Joe DiPala(sic), who also happens to be the upline of Quixtar. We had many functions with Quixtar before they were Quixtar. I saw these guys go Diamond(big deal, right). Jim Pare' actually invented the Power Player program that, I'm assuming they use it today. This was modeled after Casey Combdens "Depth Charger" program and "Depth Charge Board"( driving three legs deep in certain increments of numbers etc. etc.). Eventually they became big enough to have their own functions. Around this time, Casey Combden actually broke away from the Yeager organization and formed the "InterBiz Business System"( i.e we are the opp. Quixtar is the partner store). One day we were told that because of Pare's special relationship with Combden we would be the first InterBiz USA organization(Doyle and Hansen came around about a year later).
All InterNet tools were replaced with InterBiz tools. Of course these guys were crossline(which probaly pissed a lot of people off), but they really believed in what they were doing, and imagine "redirecting" all of that tool money. Prosumerism was the catchphrase, the new "Business Owners Focus Board" was the secret, and the whole thing had a new corporate feel.
Literally hundreds of new tools were added to the system, which did make it easier to walk a new I.B.O through the process, and also made it easier for them to line their pockets. So, one day I get a call from my upline Rubys' telling me that THEY were now breaking away from InterBiz. Why? I was told they had "integrity" issues with Pare'(yes, the man I had seen them praising and treating like some kind of icon about a thousand times) AND that "the pendulum had swung to far towards the system and we want to swing it back to products and retailing". This was around the time that the "10 customer/50pv rule" was, apparently, starting to become enforced. I immediatley called the Quixtar rules and regulations people, here is what transpired:
Me: " Yes m'am I am a prospect who recently saw your compensation plan, and it was stated to me that no retailing was involved, that all I have to do is buy for myself, and teach others to do the same. What do you say?"
R&R:" WHO showed you the plan, and WHAT line of sponsorship are they?"
Me:" I don't know, I just met the guy, please answer my question"
R&R: "That is false, and grounds for termination."
Upon hearing this I called my upline Emerald and told him what I heard. He said that what I did was like asking a police officer if it is alright to speed. The whole thing was about "faking" 50pv. In the plan they even said "We just redirect 50 pv to a different part of the site". Needless to say I terminated myself. So in retrospect, I WASTED 2 yrs of my life in some convoluted, confusing, exclusionary business heirarchy. All the lost and missed relationships and opportunities makes me sick to my stomach to this day. Did I learn sound principles and become a better person? Yes. Could they have been learned somewhere else at much less emotional and financial cost? Yes. Of course, the still indoctrinated, will probably criticize, but come on, I've prospected ever gas station, retail store, and mall between Wilmington ,Delaware and Washington D.C. I was finally beginning to hit my stride, and sponsor strangers, by myself, when all of this shit hit the fan.
See, you're not going to work at 711 for two years and say you wasted those two years. But this is a 24/7 thing. A 19 year old SHOULD be out having fun, dating, and growing up, not out perpetuating this madness. I can send you any sampling of InterBiz tools that you like, so, please don't hesitate to contact me(and please leave my name on this if you post it, which I expect you will)
I was a part of Amway/Quixtar for 7 years and my husband and myself worked very hard. We went to all the meetings, conventions home meetings, etc. As a result we got to 2500 one month and never achieved it again.
We lived in a beautiful home in Sarasota, Fl. We had to file bankruptcy and gave up our home. We had a beautiful life, very little debt and because upline said they wouldn't help anyone who didn't go to meetings we kept going and getting further in debt with books, tapes, functions. I learned many positive things and made some changes in myself, but the upline were phoney. I know several people who are in big debt today because of their involvement with these people who started TIF. They talk of God, they deserted and disillusioned so many people for their own gratification. How sad. But we moved to Georgia and we are so much better off away from the money mongers! I've called Sherry Watts and she doesn't even know me anymore. She for one I thought was humble and had integrity. She really disappointed me. Of all the upline I had the most respect for her, but she is no different. How sad!! I wish you well in your business. But how can you succeed when you've hurt so many lives.
Sincerely from the heart,
I was an Amway distributor from 1981 until 1996. I started reading the other side of the story on the Internet in early 1996, and became so enraged that I ultimately quit. I never felt so betrayed in my life. It took me a long time to decompress and deprogram myself from all these years of propaganda.
What had hurt was that I got to know a lot of these people in the 14 years that I had been in the business.
I will agree with what one Diamond said: Distributors are painted with too broad of a brush. For the most part, those at the Direct level and below are incredible, wonderful people. I have stayed in many of their homes, borrowed their cars, and they even paid for my wedding night hotel room. It is when the tool income starts becoming the majority of their income that these people start to change. And I have witnessed this change personally in watching people grow in the business. It was so sad.
I only reached 1000 PV once, but I was never in the business for the products. My story is a bit unusual and way outside the scope of this email, so I will skip it for now. Suffice it to say that the tools side of the business can fill some profound and unexpected needs quite apart from their intended purpose.
Anyway, in my travels and travails through the business, I managed to meet quite a few "winners" that, when I finally quit in 1997, seemed to have vanished. I can give you a list to add to your MIA site, and their last known statuses:
Joe and Glenda Humfleet (OK City, OK) - they were Diamonds and part of the Ambassadors International (Setzer) organization in the early 1980s. In 1994 I personally spoke with Glenda and they were not qualifying as Directs anymore. She didn't mention Joe either.
Gene and Kay Abney (OK City, OK) - same as above, downline from Joe & Glenda. They were my upline Directs from 1988 to 1995. They also were not qualifying as Directs. At last contact with them, they were going into the Rexall business with another former diamond named Tony Glass, and also supposedly with the legendary Kay and Carolyn Fletcher (of AM-4 "Never Never Quit" and "Call of a Leader" fame). I liked Gene and Kay, and they spent a bit of time with me and my kids. I even drove them around to functions, and became a friend of theirs.
Kay and Carolyn Fletcher - Diamonds since the 1960s; see above.
Tony Glass - Diamond in the early 1980s; single; see above.
Allan and Stephanie Neuenschwander (Houston, TX) - Diamonds in the early 1980s. When I left the above organization in 1995, Allan offered to sponsor me. I had worked with him a number of times over the years, and I liked him, but for some reason I declined to let him sponsor me. I honestly don't know if they are still in the business or not. They are downline from Rick Setzer.
Ernest & Marty Williams (Fort Pierce, FL) - Emeralds for over 20 years. They are personally sponsored by Rick Setzer, and was my last upline Direct until I permanently left the business in 1996. Particularly influential since they personally sponsired several Setzer Diamonds (Allan & Stephanie were one of their Directs). Ernest was extremely loyal to Dexter Yager and the system.
Dewey and Kay Tobias (Longwood, FL) - They were my first upline Diamonds back in the early 1980s. I have no clue where they are at now.
Ray and Pat Ambrose (Altamonte Springs, FL) - Emeralds who you have listed on your web site; personally sponsored by Dewey and Kay Tobias. I recall that Ray Ambrose faded from the picture at some point, because Pat was the only one listed when their distributorship was mentioned. From personal experience, I can say that Ray was not a very nice person - he publicly made fun of me at an Open Meeting in the early 1980s.
Ralph and Betty Autrey (unknown) - personally sponsored Diamonds of Dewey and Kay Tobias as of about 1984 or so.
George and Ruth Halsey (Greensboro, NC) - Triple Diaminds sponsored by Rick Setzer. Allegedly the first African-American Diamonds in Amway. Another MIA (along with several of their downline Diamonds - and they had several, something like 6, as I recall).
Keith and Jimmie Lee Belknap (Tulsa, OK) - They were Triple Diamonds whose organization was the reason behind the Setzer v. Amway lawsuit. I have never seen an explanation as to why they left the business (or were asked to leave).
Don and LaDonna Brannon (Tulsa, OK) - the sponsor of Keith and Jimmie Lee Belknap. Another MIA, or still active?
John and Karen Perkins (Boston, MA) - These Diamonds were "adopted" by the Setzers back in the early 1980s. They just "vanished" off of the map in the mid 1980s.
Coleman and Charlotte Orr (Alpharetta, GA) - Diamonds also adopted by the Setzers. The last I saw of them was in 1989, when I was doing A/V support for functions out west.
Darwin Cline (Kline?) - North Carolina Emerald who is a cousin to Rick Setzer. Last seen around 1995 or so.
Dan and Bunny Williams (Crown Ambassadors) - where did they go? I think that they were downline from Charlie Marsh.
Tom and Sandy Payne (Alabama) - Triple Diamonds in Rick Setzer's organization. Also MIA as of 1996.
I would presume so, since the 1986 Setzer vs. Amway lawsuit was all based on Amway cheating Setzer out of buying the Belknap's business.
However, I have no definitive proof, like being personally told. All I know is that they simply vanished from the scene after they hit Triple Diamond in 1981.
The Belknap downline included:
- their two kids, who were each Pearls;
- Jimmie Lee's mother and father, James & Francine Dodd, who were Diamonds
- James Dodd's younger brother, Doyce and his wife Nadeen, were also Diamonds.
I also think that the Belknap fallout was why Bob Crisp sold his business. The Belknaps were a mighty big flash in the pan in Oklahoma and elsewhere. I recall trying to sponsor people in Oklahoma back in the late 1980s who were former distributors and were sick of Amway because of that whole mess.
These are about all that I can think of.
I don't really think too much about the business these days, which is why this letter seemed to come right out of the blue. I just stumbled across your site and thought that maybe I could help you fill in a few blanks. I changed my name many years after I left the business, so even if you were to ask these people themselves, they would not recall. So, on this note, if you would like to just take this as a starting point or a "side list" to substantiate other accounts, that would be fine.
And, congratulations on keeping your site up. I don't know how much heat you take over this, but if it is anything like what Sidney Schwartz and Charles Midgett had to go through, you have my respect and admiration!
Oh, by the way, there is no need to reply unless you have some specific questions. I hope that you can use some of this.
I'm sure you get a number of these already, but I just wanted to send you a big 'Thank You' on your Amway/Quixtar page.
I was approached late last week by a former colleague (I was an intern in the company, he was a lot higher level). At first when he called me thought it was about a real job, he only told me later in the conversation it was not. When I asked him what it was about, he told me that it was a company that 'leveraged the growth of the internet'. I was skeptical, but he was quite well respected in the company and I figured I'd talk to him.
He came by last night. The majority of the presentation was the standard song and dance about financial freedom, etc. I think he only mentioned 'Quixtar' about 55 mins into a 1 hour presentation. Sounded okay, but I do remember saying to him that this whole thing was really dependant on the site being a better place to shop that normal stores (not just better prices, but good quality, service, etc). Naturally, I can't see the site or a catalogue until I joined. It sounded alright, but by this morning I decided I didn't really like the idea - I didn't want to ruin relationships with friend and relatives by being 'that guy' who was always trying to sell them something.
today I searched for 'quixtar' on google and your site came up. Needless to say, it was very informative. I had no idea this was related to Amway at all! I was a little upset by that. I sent my former colleague a 'Thank you, I'm not interested' note.
Thank you for all of the valuable information.
PS - I find it interesting that for the word Quixtar, Microsoft spellchecker suggests 'Quitter'.
Hello, I am an IBO in the Eager, Hooch, Hart, Nealis, Mitts line of sponsorship. I was wondering if you have available, an accurate depiction of all of the players in the above LOS. I am in the process of reevaluating my level of participation in my Quixtar business and want to "take my Diamond to task" and have him explain to me all of the BSM/Tool follies that continue to go on in my LOS. I really need the LOS to correlate it to all of the lawsuits out there against Diamonds in and around my LOS by Diamonds in and around my LOS. My big question to my Diamond will be "why should I build a huge Quixtar business, only to have at least half of my income [from tools) used to control my actions or to have it taken away all together when I am full-time in the business and retired from my job, and very reliant on that income source?"
Thanks if you can help out.
My wife and I joined Amway in 1992 in the Yager line of sponsorship, and are still involved in the business as far as the product side of the business.
If you look in the August 1998 Amagram, you will see our photos as new Directs. We stopped qualifying in 1999 when our upline Emerald decided to leave our Diamond and was placed with Don Storms.
We worked hard from 1992 until 1998 when we qualified. We lost over $150,000 by wrecking cars, taking the focus off our business, and being guided by our upline Emeralds who really did not have our best interests at heart.
I don't have all bad things to say about the business. We still get a check for about $200 to $250 a month for products that we still sell. The functions, tapes and books have changed our lives for the better. But the truth is, we would be much further ahead if we just would have focused on our careers and our family instead of sleeping in cars in rest areas.
The year we went direct, I put 90,000 miles on a used 1989 Cadillac. We were dead broke, and everyone in our family tried to stop us. We were like crack addicts with the business. As a new direct, we got a check for $800 the first month for 'tape credits'. We spoke at a local seminar and were paid $600.00, which totally floored me. We also got a bonus check from our sponsor for $6,000.00, $3,000.00 of which was paid to our Downline as their bonuses.
Of course we never talked about what we paid out, or the functions, driving all the miles, all the money in tools that we spent, and the money I Iost while driving to show the plan instead of working my primary business. When people asked what we were making, I just showed them a photocopy of that $6,000.00 check and left it at that.
Because our Diamonds were close to the Yagers with no active people in between, we got to get close not only to Dexter and Birdie, but other really big pins. I even drove Dexter around at a few functions.
The question that was raised by your site that haunted me was, 'If the business is so good, why is so much money changing hands for training?'. I think that most of the people in the business mean well, but some are corrupted by the tool money.
What would I say to someone looking at this as a business? Don't waste your time until Quixtar stands up to the Yagers and takes the tool business away.
After poking around and reading your g.d. site, I now accept that Amway-Quixtar was a bad idea (I've been inactive for about 6 months). Not that it was terribly hard, since I always had that nagging doubt.. I'm not trying to discredit you and your analysis as I thought it was a terrific read and helped justify my doubts about the biz such as price comparison and inflated numbers. I had an upline tell me that XS energy drink was the number 1 selling energy drink. My response to him was "Wow" but to myself I was screaming "BS", because I work in the soft drink industry and I know the number one energy drink is Red Bull, and this is based on some casual research I had done beforehand...largely with Beverage Digest. Referencing is a moot point, but I want to show you I can research, even though I got suckered into Amway-Quixtar.
One thing I will have to own up to is my buddy/roommate who ask me a lot of those questions or doubted Quixtar calling it a pyramid scheme. I did take it personal that he said I couldn't do it even if it was legit because I didn't have the necessary people skills. I disagree with him there, because I (and others) can become more personal and talkative with people. I guess if there's some positives to pick up from my venture into Amway, its from the BSM motivational talks (not all of them, mind you). What I have got from them is that I am the only one who is going achieve my goals, No one else is going to do it for me, etc, etc, etc (granted they were talking about the biz but I think a lot of the 'teachings' can be applied to everyday life). Guess I'm still trying to reduce my losses, but to its credit, things have been on the up and up...
Again, job well done and thanks for your service whether you get many thanks or not,
I am writing you tonight because my father is sold on Team in Focus. While we have just made a little money selling one Wellness Filter, my wife and I are actually involved with Life Force International. By all sober comparisons, there is no comparison, neither with the product nor the comp plan. I am writing you because I want to know the inside scoop on TiF. My dad was in Amway, Quixtar, and on Ron Rummel's line, is now in TiF. Every month he says it's going to be next month or two that he is making money; every month there is a new wonder product that is going to do it. He's been doing this for at LEAST six years and we are making more in LFI in three months than he has ever made per month in the three he's been with. My hunch tells me that TiF is another company built to benefit the top folks -- I've studied the industry a fair amount -- but I am gather information for my dad, who is hoping to retire on TiF income.
My LFI upline just hang their heads because the know that LFI is a completely real opportunity -- we KNOW average people who are in the business -- we knew them before they got into LFI -- and they are doing very well. But I know NO ONE doing well in TiF or any binary tree company.
Can you please share all the dirt and info you can on this company, TiF? I want to challenge my dad's blind trust in his upline who is basically the Rummel crew.
scott I think 2/.3 of the austrlian/nz diamonds in the yager network at least would not requalify at diamond: particular:
alan & denise decker, roland & jenny mc gready, lisa smart ( husband phil?????????), bill & briony smart, dave bichard, peter and katie martin, micj & jenny clark, mick & helen lawrence disappeared from planet, suspect craig & anna deane do not qualify as doubles - not sure, same with trevor & jacki chatham, celia thorburn, ian & vaula mcdermott, and I will have missed some.
also trevor chatham divorced his first wife. suspect that there are probably only 3/4 of 25/30 diamonds who qualify @ highest pins.
vern & connie anderson went diamond in 88 in foley network in usa & disappeared............
I have reviewed most of the postings on your site, and would like to offer that our experience with Amway and now Quixtar has been and continues to be positive. We have operated our business profitably since we first hit 4000 pv and were paying 8 seperate "legs" bonus checks.
When we started our business, we had the advantage of not having financial resources except for what we developed via retail sales, and the bonus plan via width. I have always understood that IF the volume is there, I would be paid.
Early in the business, I took to heart this statement: "Security is in the ability to perform" and I think this applies to any endeavor.
One of the reasons that we started the business was to diversify our income sources. I never stopped diversifying....
I have observed many people but all their "eggs in one basket" so to speak, in many cases...across many professions...worse is to put all your "baskets in one egg" ! When I was a kid, I had a paper route, cut lawns, painted houses, and had a car wash business...always had something to do and money in my pocket. So what I did as a kid ...I still do today..just in different business' not a lot to write about there, but I have a firm rule : Always accept free press !
I have never had a problem understanding any aspect of the Amway/ Quixtar compensation plan. It has never been confusing to me at any point, and I have always felt that any time, money or effort that I allocated was a direct result of my decision to so do.
I have been paid correctly to the penny, to the date for over 25 years, for every bonus that we have qualified for.
Not one time has the Corporation refused to stand behind a product satisfaction policy.
I think it is valuable to have opinions on all sides of issues, and I think criticism is extremely valuable, and there is always much to be learned from it. I have found that very few issues or subjects are all one way or the other..but more of a blend of opposites.
Below is the email i told you about from my upline (Was Platinum not sure about now) At the very bottom is the email I sent him. I am not sure if this helps you at all let me know. after all this i sent back $600 worth of tools and was promised money back and that was in April surprisingly enough I am still waiting for my Money from this guy.....Anyways feel free to post this or do whatever you want...Use the names if you want unless you are not aloud whatever is fine.....But this email will surly show you and people how brain washed these people really are.....Anyway Enjoy!!!!
Please check this web page out I feel nothing is said here negative but all truthful....I do not see how you can tell me different but feel free to state your opinion please...Understand this should not be a one sided conversation...Also understand this will not be the first time I am sure someone will question the Tool business so please learn from this...so far my questions have not been answered but I feel I have been given the run around..I only ask for you guys to respect my questions and concerns and answer me honestly...I do not need a guilt trip like i have received already, just answers. I feel I have been nothing but nice about this and have only asked for the truth...As for my $200 I feel you guys will be the honorable business men you are and will refund me that money as soon as possible please...I do not feel my $200 will be missed in anyway so it should be no problem getting me that money...Please understand I respect you guys dearly and understand what you as people have taut me, I really am thankful for this. But I cannot believe in the system that is not truthful please understand that...DO NOT get into how many people lives you have touched and saved and all that...These are true facts but this is because of what powerful people and what great leaders you are....Please do not mistaken it as being part of the system...It is because of your character....I do not feel our emeralds, diamonds and up have the right to create a lifestyle (50-70% of income comes from the system) on the "system". Any true leader understands you serve your downline at your own cost not theirs you don't take advantage of them ...And please do not tell me if you told your whole downline that you made money of everything in the system that created you a lifestyle that they would really respect what you had to say about buying and attending the functions tools and whatever else...anyway I think you guys get my point of what I may be upset about...Please remember: Understand this will not be the first time I am sure someone will question the Tool business so please learn from this and approach it in a better manner then you have with me....
In all respect back Daniel, it's hard for someone like me who fully appreciates the phenomenal people I'm associated with, mentorship I've received, and even having opportunities we have in a country which lives and breathes due to free enterprise (remember all those people at war fighting for your right to be free, own your own business, etc.) to not just about want to throw up after reading your email - not the part where you include the article you are sending around that you have allowed to be your compass for making probably the biggest financial mistake of your life in my opinion, but the email you have sent.
"please learn from this and approach it in a better manner then you have with me...."
how ridiculous is this? Are you really trying to say that Greg B driving all the miles for you, me going to Chicago for you, all the late night counsel with Jeremy, and all of us never ever doing anything but loving and encouraging you and Sarah was treating you poorly? That hurts, dude. And I know you'll say that you don't think it's us, it's the big bad
guys up top (like that puss that was an Emerald, couldn't hack it, then quit - I wonder how many other things or people that guy has quit on in his life and the time he had to put into it to justify that - probably now a full time gig for him and his "proud" wife?)
I'll shoot you straight, I've always been MATURE enough to realize this is a business and in order for a business to run you must make profit in all areas - or it's called government cheese - where all the strong "men" of society always thinks someone else owes them something because their skirts are riding up too high and they can't suck it up enough to get the job done themselves.
You ask for us to be honest with you, I'm not sure if that is really what you want. I could honestly tell you that if you look long enough for some excuse - other than you just couldn't yet bring yourself to come out of your comfort zone and really have enough courage to get the job done - anyone could find one. You have the heart of a lion Daniel, and I can't believe
you are hunting around finding excuses for you to fail. You are better than that.
Honestly, I'm reading this email and saying "duuhhh" there is profit in tools and functions - IT'S A BUSINESS!!! You think everyone in our system needs to just put everything together for all the broke mentality, excuse minded people of the world for free? Come on man, excuse me for being harsh about this, but that concept sounds alot more like welfare to me.
Howcome you don't complain about the crazy tuition rates you pay? What about the HUUUUGGGEEE mark up on your college books? Real Estate seminars cost thousands, does that mean the people involved in our University "system" or Real Estate "system" are "shady" and trying to take advantage of people???? NO!!! They have helped 1,000s help themselves (there is a concept). Nobody has ever lied to you about anything - I've learned all about the tool profit over the course of time by moving my business forward - don't you understand there is a process in learning more and more
throughout your business the bigger you get? This "system" is second to none. It's probably given me more useful education that I've applied to more areas in my life than anyone else has given me (including my parents) all added up before I got in this phenomenal gift of a business God has placed in my lap. And all that extra money you are so worried about, you have access to also when you get to certain levels in the business. They don't have to do that - but because of their integrity, it is available to you also. That ought to excite you, not be some lame excuse for you, unless of course your own personal view of yourself never allows you to see yourself as a Diamond - then all this would be an issue. To be perfectly honest, I wish we all paid more to the phenomenal leaders of this business somehow for being the men they are, and helping the masses as they do - they deserve to be blessed - I say we double the tool cost and function cost to
reward their effort and integrity!!!!
Daniel, you have everything it takes to be a Diamond - do you know how many people's live you would change for the better? What kind of lives are being changed by you working for somebody else for the next 60 years - none!
Seems pretty selfish to me, but then again it is definitely easier. Take the time to evaluate how the place you work at is run and how profit is generated and see if you really want to commit to them - oh right, but everybody else is doing it so it's ok...
I'm sorry if it seems as though I am hammering you on this - but I truly feel when you knock anything about this "system" you may as well be knocking my family. Included in that family are a couple of my best friends in the world with Jeremy and Greg B. who have been nothing but amazing, honest warriors, out there getting the job done, sincerely making a difference in this world, not even because of the money, that's just a perk, not because they want to, this business can be tough at times, but because they know it's right.
Daniel, if you had done the work which you know this business takes (again, it is a business, right?) and you had fifteen growing legs that literally called you at least once a week thanking you for helping them save their marriages, help their parents, and be more fulfilled than they ever dreamed, how would you feel?
Is this business full of Christians (as you questioned - man, what are you thinking?) you bet. You obviously are not that versed in the understanding of God's laws of prosperity - you may want to check it out...
I literally have not even begun with this topic. If you "honestly" want more answers call me and I'd be glad to discuss it further with you. I hope you choose to wake up and think maturely about this man, it would break my heart to watch you walk away from the best thing you could ever do with your life, and with you bring down those around you that care about you most.
Great site. I check it every month for news & info. I just got looking over the page called "Who Moved Their Cheese", and got to wondering what ever happened to my upline. I left the organization when I did not renew for 2002.
It's been so long since I've had contact with any of them, so it would be interesting of any of your other site visitors may know where they are today.
If I recall correctly, I started in the Gooch gang. My diamonds were John & Teri Hall, who were under a diamond whose name I think was Reardon, and my Emerald was Charles (Chip) Albertson. Too bad I tossed everything away that I had from Amway/Quixstar. I do recall getting a phone call from a former upliner who had started with TIF, along with my Emerald.
The sad thing is that most of the people that I spent most of my time with (at the lower levels) were good people. Just too sad so many deceiving people were in our upline.
Below is a response from an active Quixtar member responding to my concerns. (Andrew is a good friend of mine who is just getting started with the venture and wants meto join.)
Any feedback? Is this rebuttal standard fare?
Andrew forwarded me the following message. First of all, I want to thank you for being a friend and sharing this information with us. Before I go into addressing these issues and what I've learned, I want you to know that my intention is to present the business opportunity to our family and friends who may be interested in, not sell anything that I don't whole-heartedly believe in.
I want you to know that I've done a lot of research and brought up the issues you mention below plus more. Yes, the Quixtar was created by the descendants of the folks that started Amway and to say the least those who started Amway were very greedy and they learned some lessons through the hard way.
In regards to the business model, I am sure you realize this business model is not different than corporate America (just think about the structure of HP), where few at the top make the most money while the majority at the bottom work the hardest and make the least money. Actually the refreshing difference is that the person who is doing this business controls the success or failure of the business and the amount of money he/she make; not the management as is in corporate America.
It has been about 4 months since I learned about this business. I was extremely skeptic and did a lot to learn about Quixtar, Amway, and ILD so that I separate the facts from the hypes.
1. The business teaches you to buy from your own portal the things you already buy somewhere else. Please note the view you had shows you only a sample. This portal has everything you can possibly think of from the things one uses every day as well other major products and services that a person would use during his/her lifetime. It is a database that has most of the brand products you'd buy at department stores. I'd be glad to show you some of the catalogues.
2. If you duplicate the business, you make money. If people don't duplicate it, they don't make money (they are only clients and members purchasing products as they always have done).
3. This is not make-a-lot-of-money-quickly business, it is one that takes time and effort to build, while providing tax-write off benefits initially and the potential to make a lot of money over time. A Plan B in an area of business where it is still in its infancy!
4. John O has been in this business for 12 years and Wayne Yamaguchi for 8 years. John is passionate about what he talks about because he sees the results of what this business can do for people. He and some of the other people I met are proof that this business works if you apply yourself. The power of the Internet is that it brings information to
your finger tips and you can read a lot about people who tried this business and failed. In all business, including the ones you and I work for, most often than not, we hear about complaints, not good news.
5. Every business endeavor has risks, some high and some low. Most of us have been burned in the high-risk business of investing in the stock market. This business is extremely low-risk by comparison.
Thanks for the feedback. I have done my research after thinking much on this topic. I have even perused the Quixtar online catalog and pretended i was a member and tried to calculate how much I would actually spend per month vs. how much they'd like me to spend in a vacuum if money were grown in my backyard -- things just didn't reconcile. Most of my friends (except for A) are skeptical, too, so I cannot even imagine being able to put together a dream network to generate sufficient income no matter how good of a salesman I am.
Attached is my friend A's response to my warning. Being one of the house meetings myself, it is scary how such a successful, experienced man such as A (tech executive, $150k salary) can be reduced to a believer in a systematic way. Maybe this is too much, but it reminds me of my readings of Hitler and how he was able to turn common man into killing machines. I dunno, I'm concerned about him. I'll ask him to look over his uplines' schedule c's, but i have this feeling that he has already been "turned" -- I can already see it in the tone of his email. The only good thing i can see come out of this is that I'm wrong and he goes on to make a million bucks.
Good morning Tom. I am glad you did some research. The info is very useful, I printed tons of pages from the web site and I went over it.
Here is the deal:
1. There is no easy money. Probably, this is the easiest it gets!
2. Almost every business benefits the few at the top.
3. We are programmed to think to work as employees.
4. Yes, we may not make a lot of money, but what are we loosing? Our time and mileages and a few dollars a month? Just a couple of hours of TV time and a few miles of extra driving? We spend it in front of the tube (be it the TV or the computer) any way. Working hard, sweating it out and relaxing in front of the tube has gotten us no where. I have
seen it for 15 years.
5. The business model is pure and simple. I spend a couple of hundred a month and I help others do the same. I spend money to get to a 100 PV. If I still like buying else where, standing in line and be abused by poor service and unhappy clerks, I can still do that.
6. I make the effort to get 6 to 10 people to do what I am doing. That alone will enable me to earn over 2500 a month. Tell me what else you can do to get that much?
7. As to tapes, books and stuff, NO one forces me to buy. We have not purchased a penny worth of books yet. We borrowed, read them and I am in love with a couple of books and I am buying them. I am sure, you will do the same.
8. When it comes to price, it could be a bit more expensive on some items but also a lot cheaper on others. And this comparison is not factoring the convenience, the satisfaction guarantee and the time saving attached to it. But again, I don't have to buy. I just need 100 PV/month.
There is a lot more to say, but you see the point. You are a smart guy and I urge you to think about more.
Since I heard this plenty during my years with Amway/Quixtar, I thought your website might somehow benefit from this short email.
The Nine Great Lies of Sales & Marketing - Lie #6:
'Winners never quit, and quitters never win.'
I can directly attribute this lie to five solid years of misery and failure in my own life.
In my early 20's, I was a network marketing junkie, and I was hearing this one every day. And I believed it passionately.
But eventually, slowly, I began to realize that this statement was nothing more than a way of manipulating me (via guilt) into sticking around for yet-another-month of doing something that absolutely was not working at all.
Let's get something straight: Some businesses don't work. Some enterprises aren't worth doing. Some products are so weak that nothing can save them. Some ventures are doomed from the start, and even if they *appear* to be worthwhile.
Even if some people are capable of making them *look* successful, you must submit them to rigorous testing (as I discussed yesterday) and find out if they're fundamentally profitable or not.
When you figure out that it ain't going to work, DITCH IT and move on! That's quitting out of STRENGTH.
Here's the REAL issue:
Are you quitting out of STRENGTH, or are you quitting out of WEAKNESS?
If you quit because you're just lazy or not willing to learn, then you're quitting out of weakness. Too bad for you.
If you quit because you've determined that you're headed in the wrong direction, then you're quitting out of strength. And you should quit as fast as you possibly can, so that you can WIN at something else.
So here's the REAL truth:
Winners never quit out of weakness, and quitters even never get far enough to quit out of strength.
Just like everything else I've been talking about this week, shrewd marketing uses real numbers and results to judge winning and losing propositions and get down to the real truth.
Back to my life in MLM: I bought a book called 'Prospecting Sucks' by Dan Kennedy (http://www.tannah.net/prospecting.html) and thankfully started using direct marketing to build that business. Actually, that approach DID work.
BUT - I also discovered that the cost of acquiring a customer was way too high and the return took so long. Simply put, there were many other businesses where the numbers were vastly superior, and required far less 'manual labor.'
When I was building that business via shoe leather, the true cost was hidden from me, and I thought it would be worthwhile in the end.
But - when I reduced the acquisition of a new customer to a *dollar figure*, though, it became obvious that I was making a mistake.
I quit. Out of strength.
After that, my next adventure was actually in a traditional corporate job in a small company. It was a lot of fun, and eventually, very profitable.
Great site! http://www.amquix.info I haven't had a chance to review much yet, but the page on Bad things that IBO's say seems pretty typical. They have drunk the Koolaid and are still caught up in the aftertaste of all sugar and no substance. I was just contacting an ebay member about an Amway product only to get sarcastic responses and then found out that the couple were 'trolling' for IBO's on ebay. Sounds like a heck of a business opportunity.
We were recruited into Amway in April, 1994. We were active participants until 1999. Our total losses were at least $20,000, probably more. We worked three to five nights per week, at least three hours per night. This time was spent "showing the plan," trying to recruit other people to join Amway and buy products from themselves as we had been taught to do.
When we were first recruited, we read the back of the contract and noticed the "ten customer rule." At the next meeting with our sponsor, we asked about the rule, stated we had no interest or intention of selling anything, and were therefore not interested in Amway. We were told at that time not to worry about selling anything, that rule did not apply to our line of sponsorship since it was teaching how to "buy from yourself and teach others to do the same." We joined on that premise.
Most months we had no customer orders. For the few months with customer orders, we had a maximum of two customers. Our total gross profit from sale of product for 1994-1999 was $89.33. We resold to customers at cost since the focus of our group was total points. It is doubtful they comprised even 1% of our business. We never had to report customers and were never encouraged to develop a customer base. Our primary focus was recruiting, and helping others recruit.
Thank you for your time.
I just received your link from my brother- we were in the Great Lakes Network in the late 90's. What has happened to Scott Michaels? I looked through the site and haven't found any information on him. I'd like to say that I wish I'd seen this site prior to my husband and I losing over $30K over 3 years, but the painting of the dream was so profound that I probably wouldn't have listened.
In our case I had had enough of the loses (I did keep good track and records of what we spent), and I was really tired of our Diamonds (Roy and Mary Ann Bulmer) talking to us like idiots and using Christian jargon to fill their pockets. (I'll never forget Don Storms talk at a rally "count it all joy" James 1:5.- and I see on your site- what has happened to him) today I am happy to report we have put back our marriage - nearly destroyed when I refused to do Amway anymore, and have another child, and we have grown our own Construction company to very successful levels.
I am appreciative of 2 things from Amway- 1. I was born again at one of the Sunday morning rallies and 2. some of the "general business" insight- has shown us what to do and perhaps more importantly what not to do as we have grown our business.
My relationship with my brothers suffered immensely from our involvement in Amway. One brother was a direct in the business. After we got out it took years to be able to even trust again. However, he was the one who sent me the link - showing about the Shaws. So, time has a way of healing old wounds- but it has been a slow process.
I am glad I rarely think about those Amway days, but a lot of old feelings came up as I read through your site. So many people have been damaged. I can't believe Scott Michaels sold a distributorship to the Shaws. What am I saying- of course I can. I am relieved to see some of the people I really respected- Bo Short, Andy Andrews etc... get out of the business for what I saw for a year before we finally packed it in.
Just curious about the Michaels, and thanks for having this site- I kind of feel vindicated after several years.
Here's a tidbit for you: About 10-15 years ago there was a Diamond in the Britt Line named Randy Sciliano (under Bob Smiley/Rex Renfro) who disappeared from the scene....
My upline Diamond at the time told me "Well, it appears that Randy was building a little too much depth with the downline ladies"....As usual, Bill and Rex ex-communicated him and I never saw or heard about him and his wife (linda) again....He was a young dynamic speaker with a real "ballsy" way about him....
I was part of the art/bonnie leazer diamond team. after I fell away from the system some friends on the team told me that art was keeping a low profile and I've confirmed from others that art is no longer on stage and no 1 seems to know anything. have you heard any info on this? is there anybody out there who knows what's going on? something seems very odd and wrong about this.
art/bonnie leazer they have as their upline crown Paul/[Debbie?] miller and bill/Peggy Britt. they use to be very prominent in all of miller's functions and was believed to be the next 1 due to have his own function. last I heard is that a friend [still in the biz] has told me that art has disappeared or is keeping a low profile. from everything I've read online this means he either quit or is having a divorce. art did try to push the idea of direct fulfilment on tapes and books since we no longer had a product pickup thanks to quixtar. the problem w/ this program I was told that sot cost $6.60 and that 4% of the $.60 was to pay for shipping. what I couldn't understand and didn't seem fair to me then is why did I have to pay for more shipping for it to be shipped straight to my home when I couldn't justify the 4% for it to get to product pick up? they should have dropped the 4% or not add the new shipping cost. if I knew this is how he made most of his $ then I can understand that it was his greed. I noticed my upline ruby [bill/Kim beard] stopped promoting the seminars and rallies after the 9/1/99 launch and we dropped the open meeting in favour of a biweekly open training session at shoney's. eventually that ended and I think most of the beard team has either dissolved or scattered. not sure since I don't stay in contact w/ them. some I knew would refuse to talk to me or consider me as a friend b/c I choose to be inactive. I was going to renew since I liked the products but decided I can find cheaper and that the demos to promote the quality of the product weren't really designed to show that. all the demos proved was how concentrated they were not that they could clean better. if you have any questions let me know. I'll try to help the best I can.
I did notice something interesting today. I am still registered in Paul's group although very inactive (partly due to you and Bo) at this point. Anyway, I logged into my upline emerald's new website and was looking around. I clicked on the profiles section and was reading down the list of diamonds listed and all of them. All of them were listed with their spouses but Paul was listed by himself. So I clicked into his profile and read it and it does not even mention Debbie and the picture is of just him. So I went to BWW website and the same thing was there. So I logged in the Miller website and their picture was not there but is does reference Debbie in the article and the "signature".
I have attached the 3 html files of these profiles to this email for you to look at. I talked to a guy who is very active in Larry Winter's group under Paul and was trying to get information (on the sly because he would not tell me if he knew why) and he had heard that she was "retiring" from the business to concentrate on home stuff. Interesting info to say the least. One other piece of info is that I did a search on the last 2 years of standing order tapes and Debbie has not been on a SOT since the first week of May of 2002. This is very unusual because they used to put out tons on SOT's and Debbie is on the vast majority of them.
Anyway, if you find out anything on this whole situation, please let me know. Obviously, please do not post this letter anywhere.
Hey Mr. Larson,
Here is another former Qualified Emerald in the Amway/Quixtar Business you can add to your list of those who fake it to make it.
They are Scott & Judy Barber of St. Thomas, U. S. Virgin Islands... I understood from people in my group that the Barbers never work as hard as they promoted to people and it apparently became evident when problems aroused in their group with a key downline from them.
The Barbers upline Diamond is Double Diamond John & Jenniebelle Crowe.
The Barbers had a downline Ruby whom were the real gunners in the Barbers group who really worked hard in the business and made a lot of things happen name Navaldo & Persia Niles. They were phenomenal and exciting; people loved the way they built the business.
The Barbers blew them out of the business after the Niles separated from their group and there was suppose to be a big lawsuit or something going on between Niles & Barbers. I know you can reach the Niles at ***@hotmail.com... That was the last e-mail I had for them about 3 years ago. Maybe they can fill you in on more detail.
I was also a former distributor with the Wayne and Suzanne Callendar's Group, downline from Chris & Judy Cherest (Diamonds) and the Crowe's.
Hope this helps your quest, also feel free to publish this note on your website, cause I don't care about them and their fake business for I was snagged too...
Are you still interested in new info? I am a current IBO for Quixtar via Quixtar. I have been involved for less than a month. I started to question things when I couldn't see how they generated any income when I am constantly told that all I need to do is buy some products for myself and recruit new IBO's (they don't like the term 'recruit'). But 'show the plan' means the same thing. I went to the Fall Leadership 'Major' function in Grand Rapids, Michigan and became very disillusioned (leaving early) and finally found some information on the internet that led me to you. I have not yet quit, I have told them that I need to talk to someone who can help me understand. I have told them that I was disappointed in the level of honesty and integrity that I have seen from the 'big guys'. But that is as far as I have gone. Can I help you in any way? I just cannot go out and deceive anyone else to get them to join, but I am willing to stay in if I can be of value and help prevent anyone else from becoming a victim.
I am a new IBO to Quixtar. I am so confused about Quixtar now. Though one thing is for sure...there seems to be many gray areas I cannot get straight answers to. Do you know if Dateline is going to do a story on Quixtar? I am hoping so. Meanwhile I will continue to find out as much as possible. Any direction will be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and assistance.
Who pays you to put up a website that is totally focused on putting out 50% true information and spinning it around into false information?
I know many successful IBOs and they are honorable business people that have built the American dream using a proven system that was already investigated by the FTC. It requires a lot of hard work to become successful as an IBO and none of it is deceiving as is the information you present on your website. You should look into more factual information.
I was in for acouple of years do to my awesome father but BRAINED WASHED FATHER convincing me it was everything.
My father and many of my friends are infected with this illness. I am just e-mailing you to inform you that I will compile all information you are requesting and I also will get a few others to do the same.
Let me know if I can help in any other way!
I have been in quixtar / amway for several years and over the last year have pulled back... I still stay in contact with several people in my group & several people in my upline...
(So please do not use my name with this addition to your site...)
They just returned from FED in Raleigh NC and our upline Ruby told several people in his leadership group that Paul & Debbie are getting divorced... He also told them not to say anything but play it down when people asked about it... they were also told the story that it will not effect us since Larry has broken off due to how big his group is and has been doing his own functions...
She (Debbie) over the past few years has not been coming to Winters events with Paul and was not at Winters Dream Night, Winters Spring Leadership or FED this year...
I have been told that Paul will lower his profile in the business for a while until this blows over...
I guess the 7 homes & many cars, all the toys and stuff did not matter.... I have extra Miller Lifestyle Videos if you want to have one to see that Paul is a very big guy in Quixtar... He is one of 3 to qualify by FAA points to use the quixtar corp jets as he wanted... He qualified for that for the past few years since it was added to the bonus plan. The others who qualified were Dexter Yeager & Bill Britt....
I'm sure you know that the line of sponsorship is:
Bill & Peggy Britt
Paul Miller (who has many Diamonds, EDC's, & Double diamonds)
My upline EDC is Larry & Pam Winters... they have several downline edc's Danny Snipes with down line diamond Jon Huffstetler... Another leg of Larry's is edc or double diamonds Joe Markowitz who has several down line diamonds including Allen Lieninger, Doug Weir, and one other... Larry also has diamonds Mike Bundy, in another leg.... yet another leg has diamonds R W & Julie Weaver, and Jake Baker... Sorry Names are missed spelled but I do not want to dig through tapes to check spellings.....
Please do not use my name when you add this to your site but you may want to do so since this is only known by the leadership in Larry's group and not by the masses in Quixtar. Of course there will not be an announcement of any kind and the newer people will not even notice what is happening and the older people will be spun a story of some type depending on their upline and how close they are & where they are in Paul's group... For Winters downline it will not be a big deal since they started doing their own functions this year.... How is that for timing....
Rocky Covington will be hurt since he still plugs into Paul for functions except for Family Reunion & Dream Night....
The other diamonds in Paul's group will be affected since they had all of their functions with Paul.... they relied on paul's lifestyle to MAINTAIN THEIR GROUPS.
I signed up only two weeks ago and am definitely getting out after doing some extensive research. I have a couple facts that already have occurred that may interest you. One, I severely questioned my upline platinum and diamond after finding all the red flags and was told by each in World Wide Group we do not have to do 70 percent of volume in retail or worry about the 10 customers per month rule. In fact I quote them in saying " there is no possible way for them to track where our volume is going so we don't have to even worry about it" This may or may not be illegal but my research indicates that it probably is. second and most important. When I went to my uplines house to register they had my finance and I sit downstairs while they registered for us. Only three days later did I run onto this Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement on the web. They not only never informed us about it they signed my name without my consent or at least that is what I assume because it is my understanding that you cannot become an IBO without signing it. We were never told about and certainly never signed it. Hopes this helps in stopping quixtar from continuing to target folks like myself. If you need any more info I will gladly provide with all that I know
You certainly have put a lot of effort into the negatives about MLM, Amway, Quixtar.
There is a glaring absence of the benefits that many of these people have done.
I am not in Quixtar/Amway/MLM now. However, I applaud anyone who will try and make a difference in life. I cannot see how your website makes a positive difference in their lives, or anyone else. I guess you can justify your action as "saving people from losing money/time." Intangible benefits are difficult pin down.
The same questions asked of this endeavor could/should be asked of all endeavors:
1. How long have you been doing what you are doing? Can you tell me the positives about who you have helped (clean water, food, shelter, clothing, etc.?)
2. How much did you spend for your college degree? Was it worth it? There are intangible positives that all can find. It is also true that 85% of college degrees are not used by the person for the reason they went to school.
3. Can you teach others to do what you are doing? The decsions one makes re: how they spend their time/efforts is their choice. It is always interesting to watch the folks at a football game. Those in the stands often have all the answers to the game. They know what the players and coaches should do. It is unfortunate that they don't come down to the field with their insights so the rest of us can learn.
Enjoy your popcorn in the stands. I hope you make a decision to change and contribute to life in a more positive way. I would not want you to be my children's teacher.
We had been in the business for 3 and one half years. It cost us just about everything! It cost us thousands of hours of time. It cost us our home (which we had to foreclose on). It cost us tens of thousands of dollars. All of which we will never get back. And almost cost us our extended family. And probably would have eventually cost us our marriage. We did not have a retail business per say. But we were in the retail business of tapes, books, and function tickets. Which we better of had at any given time. Because this is the only thing that was going to catapult our business. Even though our upline knew the financial distress we were in. It was (essential) to have these thing on hand to give out, or to sell to your group. Jim also gave up a law enforcement career as counseled because the hours in which he would have been working in Law
Enforcement would have cost him DIAMOND!!!
Jim and Donna
I would forward your website to my client, however, I know she would not appreciate it. You see, even though she was harmed by a person in her upline, she still has wonderful things to say about the company and the business. I truly believe that she would give up her dispute if she could become involved again. In fact, she is currently "recruiting" with other companies similar to Quixtar. At my first meeting with her, it was quite obvious that she was sold on the Quixtar business. Even after sobbing about how she was wronged with untrue accusations, she was clearly still enthusiastic about the company. I suggested, as part of my background work, that I might attend a meeting. Her eyes lit up and told me anytime, she would help me find a meeting. As I left the meeting, she quietly said to me (outside the earshot of her attorney) that I should check out a meeting, not just as part of my work, but for my own personal benefit. She was actually try to sell me on the concept that had just stabbed her in the back.
Yes I am still in Quixtar. I had heard that about the pv per IBO. I'm still relatively new and am not sure what to compare my numbers to (in relation to the other businesses that are affiliated with Quixtar). My feeling is that for the first couple of years, it's neither here nor there. What's better, lower profits with a growing downline or higher profits, but a continuous drop out of people and no way to sustain those profits? Quixtar doesn't put a lot of pressure on people to generate higher pv numbers and really push the, "just buy what you need to buy" idea. I'll see what I can find out about posted figures.
Hello Scott!. I would be more than happy to tell my story of spending $8,000 to $12,000 per year on the system, only to be left with nothing. I got audited last year for 1999 and 2000, and was asked to give back $5,000 of tax deductions that I took for the Quixtar business. There went the last strand of value in the quixtar business, the oft-used "good tax write-off" lie.
Write back if you are still collecting information, if it is too late, we'll just talk more about the many many things I have experienced as I go through my "deprogramming".
Talk to you soon
I am not, nor have I ever been a Quixtar IBO, but my 23 year old son is up to his eyeballs after a year and a half in the "Business'. It is literally destroying our family. He graduated from college last December and was accepted to law school for this fall. Needless to say that after all his hard work to get to this point, he actually deferred law school for this fall. He has one more opportunity to go in fall of 2004 without starting the whole process over. Spring of 2002 he had finished all his studies except two classes he took over the summer. He was debt free after 4 years of college, he had scholarship money, money we had put away for him and he worked at times 3 jobs to stay clear of debt.
At the beginning of the summer 2004, he was well over $1000 in credit card debt. This is not because he is extravagant or not working. He works 50+ hours a week in addition to all his Quixtar business, not selling products, but trying to get others to recruit others into the business. He has nothing to show for all the hours and dedication he is putting in except debt.
We have tried talking to him, shown him facts, tried to get him to read books on the topic, nothing works. Even when it seems like we have gotten through, the next time we see him it is totally reversed. He obviously is listening to his upline who is discrediting us, his parents. This is especially hard on his Dad. He is losing all respect for his son. The whole family relationship has really deteriorated. We love him, but we hate what he is doing. We know that the whole thing is a scam to make others rich at his expense. He has destroyed most of his close friendships and puts no value into anything other than the business. The whole thing is really pathetic, but they have him listening to those tapes in every free moment and reading their books constantly, listening to Amvox about an hour a day and also their internet messages. If this isn't mind control, I don't know what is. He is convinced that by listening to his upline's advice in all matters, personal and business, that his business will be a success. They keep dangling the carrot that success is just around the corner and that just isn't so. I think he has 2 people under him in a year and a half. I have no idea how many times he has shown the plan, but it is very sizeable. He is a go-getter at everything he does.
Right now his future, which should be bright by any comparison, looks very bleak and dismal. His future has been literally stolen from him by these scam artists, pretending to be good, religious, better than everyone else people. The part that is really upsetting is that our government is literally ignoring the illegality of this and similar MLM scams, while going after the likes of Martha Stewart! This company has stolen billions from millions of Americans. Most of these people are too embarrassed that they were used so badly that they quietly go about their lives after getting out. It is time to stop this ridiculous waste of time and resources of many bright young Americans. Many people in prison have done far less to harm others than the Amway/Quixtar upline and its Diamonds.
Is Bill Gates with Quixtar? They say he is.
Dear Sir - your pages is very incorrect.
You may have an opinion and bad experience.
BUT to say Quixtar was made because Amway had a bad reputation - that is totally nonsense.
It is a completely different product/setup. Therefore it cannot be called Amway.
If Amway would have wanted it they could just have renamed the whole company.
They are not ashamed - but you are bringing false evidence on your websites.
And that is so unprofessional and it places your website among the other Web-Graffity.
best regards andy
It doesn't surprise me to hear about these schemes, when I was in biz there was tremendous pressure on people to "move on " that was the way the biz worked, it played and amplified every human emotion, that was the hold it had on the people that I came in contact with. Nobody ever made money but every social misfit had a friend , I came to that realization when I was 23 yrs old , I still feel bad for the others , I noticed that I was losing an alienating friends ,family , I thankfully mended those fractured relationships ,
My mother recently asked me to help out a friend of hers, her son has been deeply involved with Amway, to the point were he has lost his home , is on verge of losing his family , his upline diamond has a shared bank account with this poor sap ,and the upline diamond automatically takes out 500.00 a month out of this guys checking account , I will definitely get you more details as they come in , i want to find out who the diamond is so we can exploit this , I will be in touch
now 30 yrs old, formerly in the yegar wilson line of sponsor ship
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