Subject: From a winner to a loser

I was in Amway 10 years ago. I have now been in Quixtar for 5 months and have passed what I did in Amway the whole two years. Have you ever tried Quixtar or are you one of those liberal losers that likes to criticize others because they are willing to risk things for a better life and to distance themselves from losers such as yourself. I read your article, it is pathetic with your made up facts and unfounded statements. I am glad I contacted successful people like IBM, Office Max, Microsoft, USA today and Russell Reynolds Associates rather than reading this cultish garbage. Are you mad because no one would pay any attention to your pathetic life or are just another quitter/loser, I think maybe both. Freedom of speech is necessary to support our free society but garbage like this should not be allowed to be printed without real facts. Where are you in life? Do you hide behind a computer all day to build your ego? I know people like you. For instance, a couple I sponsored into the Amway business 10 years ago went to all the functions, bought tapes, books and tools to build their business but would not show the plan to anyone, they quit. today their daughter and son-in-law is in the Quixtar business and the parents are telling the same story you are, they are losers in our community and the son-in-law is a respected young man in our community which takes the stigma from the daughter. The daughter has passed, in two weeks, what the parents didn't do in two years. Your article is garbage and I think you probably are too.


Ed Burris

Still no answer from Ed with his letters from Microsoft, IBM, Office Max.......

Hi Doug,

Thanks for you note. It will be easier for me to address your points if I write in below each one you made. This way I don't miss any.

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:58:10 -0500 Doug Alt writes:

Dear Scott:

Some comments regarding issues you present on your "Quixtar Amway Business Analysis" web site:

Your statement, "IBOs losing money have either not tried to retail, or the product line is not competitive enough to retail with their skill level. An IBO selling 7,500PV a month of core products to loyal customers at retail prices could gross almost $100,000/year. If the products were so competitive how come more don't just do this?"...is easily enough answered:

Have you done your 288 yet or are you just starting and spouting the party line? Are you free from your job yet, or still a beginner inj your first 24 months? I've gotten enough feedback from those that did the plan but they were never free as you claim. How's your tax return going to look this year? Gonna report a loss?

Not a major task compared to what is expected of sales persons in many fields (insurance, vacuum cleaners, stocks and bonds, lawn maintenance services, etc., etc.,).

If the reason for the existence of your website is due to some kind of negative results from your own personal experience in the Amway/Quixtar business, I dare say that it is because you did not present the business plan 288 times.

Try doing that first, in the Quixtar business OR in any OTHER business, then sit down to analyze whether complaints or criticisms are still appropriate.

Doug Alt
Answers to my questions would be much appreciated.

Scott

....Still waiting for Doug's answers

Tim and Connie Foley divorced? Connie was one of the hottest Diamond ladies back in the day. Note, I said WAS. It's been over 10 years since I've seen her and I bet every day is etched on her wrinkled brow. Did Timmy trade up or is he playing the field? Does Connie still qualify to speak from stage as a Crown Ambassador? Same goes for Kathy Victor. Time has not been kind to her. Maybe she should duplicate Jody and get a little tuck here and there for New Year's? You should see the way some IBOs worship the Diamond ladies. I've seen these women up close and they spackle on the Artistry. They take their Artistry workshops VERY seriously. Who's this Scott Dyer? Cathy Minter was a collegiate track star, but she's had 3 or 4 kids. She's what we call a Butterface. You know, she's hot and all, but - her- face. I can understand Roger Sitcler deep 6-ing Gayle. That Diamond-EDC lady did not age gracefully. All in all, you have a great site. Thanks for the updates

Scott....

I have reviewed a great deal of the information on your site and I'd like to thank you for being so honest. I many not have a long resume with this business, but I have many experiences that are not presented in "the plan". I can only speak on my own behalf and with my own opinions.

We were in the biz from 1998 until this year. We were sponsored by my best friend from High School and her husband. We were sponsored at a distance (we were in SC, our sponsors were in Washington DC....and the rest of our upline was in CA), and never really received the support that they all talked about. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of plans that ANY of our upline showed for us. And, I can count on one hand the number of phone calls or any other form of contact that our upline had with any of our prospects or downline. Sure, they showed up when it was convenient for them (tack an afternoon onto the tail end of a trip to InterNET in Charlotte, etc.). There was zero consistency, and no help. They talk and talk and talk about how you're in business FOR yourself but not BY yourself. That is such a joke......and more accurately: a lie.

In all honesty, it is a very bitter pill for me to swallow when I think of all the time and money that we spent (neither one, of which, we had to spend) just trying to get this business going. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that we really put our heart and soul into this business for a good, solid 3 years....and we never crossed 1000 PV. Ever.

The reason? We had NO support and a LOT of deceptions from our upline. Their time and efforts were not spent helping us successfully build a business, but were instead spent trying to get us to "edify" them, trying to get us to believe they had these huge organizations and had just "too many legs about to go over" to really spend any time helping us. Yet, after four years....our Diamond is still a Diamond, the next guy down has never gone direct, and neither have our sponsors. You'd think with all those "legs about to go over" that somebody's would have in FOUR years!!!!!

We went to every major function; we drove thousands of miles; we talked to hundreds of people; we put our reputations on the line countless times; we listened to thousands of tapes and read hundreds of books; we always "invested" in the latest and greatest tools...just to have them "updated" a few months later...which then made the previous version obsolete; we took part in "beta tool tests" and bought all of the necessary test components ($300 Pacer Pens that were NEVER used)...just to have the whole idea evaporate a few months later. We really did everything they told us to do...and then some. We begged and pleaded for help and support from our upline...with no return. Just lots of lip service. The part that makes me so bitter is that we really believed in it all. I mean, these were long-time friends who were telling us these things. We thought we really would be friends for life with our sponsors (haven't even heard from them in about 9 months). We really thought the dream was really possible.

When I say "we", I mean Drew and myself. He and I had been married for 3 years when we began the business, and because of some circumstances (which I will explain later), he and I divorced in 2000. We continued to build the business together until this year, when we finally had to walk away because we simply had core disagreements with our "leaders". We were on opposite ends of the spectrum with our upline, and we could not continue in a business that had become so corrupt.

One thing you should know, is that Drew and I are still extremely close, and good friends. We are best friends, in fact, and talk/see each other on a daily basis. Not your typical divorce situation. Our upline could not understand that.

Here's how it played out:

We told our sponsors in early 2000 that we were getting a divorce. They didn't take it well at all. They were actually very ANGRY with us for deciding to divorce. (What would they have preferred? That we stay married and stay miserable, just to suit them??) Then, we explained that we were going to continue to build the business together because we are people who finish what they start. We started the business as a team, and we would continue the business as a team, married or not. Then, further levels of our upline jumped into the mix. They "counseled" us NOT to do this. They pressured us to have one sponsor the other (what? maybe to get them another "level"??), and other half-baked ideas like that.

They even had a serious talk with Drew and actually suggested that he convince me to change my name!!!! They claimed it would be "less confusing for prospects". That was one of the first real wake-up calls for us that maybe our upline truly was not working in our best interests. Can you imagine they really suggested I change my name?? What? Just pick one out of a hat or something??

Like I said...it was a wake-up call. We continued to attend the major functions, even though it was very uncomfortable. Someone in the upline was always sidestepping the issues, tip-toeing around Drew and me. Perhaps trying to "get us back together" or just plain trying to "counsel" us on how God doesn't approve of divorce, and that if we "just talk it out" we would be able to work everything out and get married again. One of them even said that this was a "phase" Drew and I were going through. I guess kind of like grunge music or permed hair. Funny, we never thought of divorce like that.

Well, what they didn't know (and didn't NEED to know, because after all...this is a BUSINESS...) was that Drew was gay. He had actually told me about a month before we were sponsored into the business. But, because of my denial about the situation, we stayed married. What the upline didn't know was that we may have been legally married, but we were not mentally married.

So, we decided it was time that the upline know the whole story....because of many reasons. We were simply exhausted of having to repeatedly endure the comments and the suggestions and everything about how God doesn't approve of divorce. We had also been present for a number of occasions where the upline would make some comment about "homosexuals" or "the gays" or some other bigoted comment said in passing. (You know how your mother always taught you to watch what you say, because you never know who is listening....its true!)

By the way......until going through your website, we never knew Dexter had actually come out and said anything negative against the gay community. Dexter's audio clip was so horribly inaccurate and just plain wrong! Trust me, Drew NEVER "went after" anybody's husband either inside or outside of this business. And, if Dexter actually knew anything about the gay community, he would be red-faced embarrassed that he ever made that comment, or (even more) that it was actually caught on tape!

We also had made the decision at this point that we were going to introduce the upline to Drew's long-time boyfriend Brian. Brian and I are very good friends, and the three of us are really family to each other. Yes, it may be a unique situation, but in today's day and age, it is rare to find someone who you can really consider family anymore. Brian had attended the last DreamNight Weekend with us in Ohio, and it was time the upline knew that he was here to stay. He had become a permanent part of Drew's life (and therefore, mine as well) and it was time the upline started realizing that he wasn't going anywhere.

In all honesty, we also wanted the upline to have to really put their money where their mouth was. They claimed time after time after time how ANYONE could build this business to Diamond and beyond. Yet, there were no role models for "non-traditional" people. There is not a huge, celebrated Diamond who is single or a woman....there is not a big EDC who was Buddhist or Mormon......and there certainly was not a Double, Crown, or Crown Ambassador who was openly gay.

So, if ANYONE can build this business....then, why are all the stories in The Profiles the exact same??? It's a Christian husband and wife with 2.6 children and a couple of fancy cars. HOW BORING!!! And, how inaccurate!!!!

In February of this year, we told our sponsors that Drew and Brian and I were going to continue building the business as a team. This really was the catalyst for our departure. First, they tried to say that we COULDN'T do that. We informed them that we had consulted Ada, MI and also the Compendium and there was not a single rule anywhere about non-traditional people and situations participating under the same IBO number.

Then, they tried to say that it would hurt our business...and therefore hurt THEIR business. We said that we would rather take the risk, than to live a lie.

Our sponsors even called our Diamond...who then called us in return and "wanted to make sure this is really what we wanted to do". We said, "Build the business to Diamond and beyond....yes, that's what we want to do."

We asked our upline - point blank - if they were going to walk away and stop supporting us and helping us to build the business. "NO! No way!!!" was the response. Well, that was the 1st week of February. We haven't heard back from ANY of them...not even once. No phone calls, no letters, no emails, no postcards, NOTHING.

In all honesty, this is what we expected. And, we didn't feel like we were risking much. We had not received ANY help since day one....so, we figured that anything multiplied by zero is still zero....so, what was the worst that could happen? They'd help us LESS??

We were never asking the business to PROMOTE or ENDORSE homosexuality. We were never asking the business to APPROVE of homosexuality. We were simply asking them to ACCEPT it. If you go by the widely published statistics, about 10% of the average population is gay...even if they are not openly gay. I know for a fact that there were very successful people in this business who were most likely gay but no one knew it and certainly no one talked about it.

The day WILL come when there will be someone who makes it to Diamond and beyond who is openly gay. Just like how the day came when George and Ruth Halsey went Diamond and were the first in a long line of very highly successful black diamonds.

We have been out of the business for about 9 months now. And, I have to say, it is wonderful!! We truly miss the products....but we could not, in good conscience, order and have those points potentially help the people we disagreed with the most. We feel we learned a great deal from the business. We learned a lot about people, the industry, and trends in economics, etc. We fell in love with a few tools, but felt really burned by the cult-like deceptions that the Yager family and InterNET continue to spew. We have a very bitter taste in our mouths about the business, but upon closer inspection realize it should only be directed towards Dexter Yager. We firmly believe that Rich and Jay are pure genius, and feel bad that Dexter has corrupted their concepts and core business so horribly. We would love to join the business again....if we could only work with the Rich and Jay part of it. Anything Dexter touches is pure evil and a web of lies. But, we also realize that the corporation is really at Dexter's mercy. He has simply become too successful. Dexter does what Dexter wants. That's it. If Dexter doesn't agree with something about the corporation....he just goes and does what he wants anyway. What is the corporation supposed to do??? Bite the hand that feeds them?? We really wish that there was another Rich and Jay business that was "certified Dexter free". But, we've looked and haven't found one.

So, everyone who is still brainwashed with the business can sit there and call us "losers and quitters" all they want....but, you know what? We're happy. If there is one thing that we truly learned from the business....it is that real character and integrity are the most important marks of a true man or woman. We have the highest levels of both, and enduring this business made that happen. What doesn't kill you...makes you stronger. We are forever stronger because we looked this wonderful business in the eye, stood up for what we believed in, and walked away.

Thank you for your site and for the honesty.

Sincerely,

Margaret

I feel sorry for whoever puts all the information on your site about people quitting or failing to qualify at one time. And putting a divorce list up is pathetic and unethical. I want you to research the top 10 fortune 500 companies. List for me all those who have been fired, quit, done unethical things, got divorced, etc... There is no comparison. Surely you can find more purpose in your life then that.

I know you are going to write me off as some fool in the business. But for one second think about what you spend your life doing. Even if Quixtar was a horrible opportunity - why not spend your life doing something positive instead of tearing others down.

think on it.

Paul

Well Scott I think we are coming from two totally different mindsets. So I will not waste either of our time anymore. I hope you one day look to higher achievements in life then attacking broken marriages,and reporting people's failures. If you want to find problems with businesses go right ahead. I think you would find more issues with corporate America - but we obviously don't agree.

Grace to you,

Paul

I hope you are aware that everything that Alticor and Quixtar does has been accepted as perfectly legal. In corporate America we see a lot of illegal activities. There is a big difference there. I do not want to make a website about it though. Websites do not do anything. They are a dime a dozen. People getting active makes a difference. Why don't you set up some lawsuits or look into the legal aspects of the company? I know why - because it won't fly. Give John Sestina a call - he is considered by many as the number one financial planner in America. He is in this business. Give all the lawyers a call that are in this business. Give all the pastors a call that are in this business. You will find the business is legal - and that the vast majority of people in it are highly ethical.

I'm sorry a lot of people get in this business and fail. I wish everyone would succeed. But most people want a fast and easy buck. This isn't get rich quick. This is help others and you will be rewarded over time. You seem to miss that. Do most fail? Of course! That is true in all business. It is the American way. If you are going to succeed you must have the opportunity to fail. This business is not made for people who can't fail and then get back up. That is what winners do though. They don't fail and then come up with a million reasons why the opportunity was bad. That is what quitters do.

I wish you success in life - true success. Go out there and find it! It is the American way!

My income is none of your business. But I did not lose money. In fact, I made a profit by my second month of business - most businesses (like 80%) fail in the first three years - and rarely turn a profit. Look at Amazon - they are billions in the hole.

Also, Quixtar is not a job. It is a website. As an IBO I can put as many hours as I want into my business. Believe me, if people put 40 hours a week into their own business - they would be very wealthy. But that isn't what people do. THe vast majority of the people get in and do NOTHING. Why should you earn money from doing nothing? Now that would be illegal.

And I'm sorry you have poor figures on our retail. If you look at unit price - we match and even often beat stores like Wal-Mart. And wal-mart is supposed to be the best. Unit price shopping is called smart shopping. I did it before I even got in the business. Not to mention the quality is not even in the ball park. And by the way - the vast majority of our products are not exclusvies. THey are other companies - and they price their items.

How much money did you make shopping at Wal-mart last year? Oh..nothing...that's too bad for you. That just doesn't make much sense does it? The couple who sponsored me make over a few thousand a month in this business. She replaced her income as a teach. By next year he will retire from his job. You can't tell me it doesn't work. I know better.

The fact remains - those who don't quit and do what is taught - succeed in this business. What is sad is that few people do that. Most do nothing and then quit. It is sad, but I am finding people out there who aren't like that.

I have a feeling we aren't going to win each other over to our side. So you don't have to defend what you spend your time doing to me anymore. I give up on the debate.

Go in peace.

Hi!
I just wanted to say that I went to a meeting 2 days ago about Quixtar. I have a bachelor's degree in business and my first question to him was, "is this a pyramid scheme?" I knew something wasn't right with this, so I looked it up on the net. Lo and behold, I knew my revelations about this company was correct. However, I have known the man presenting this to me for 10 years. He is a professional and highly successful. He is a very genuine, kind person as well.

This only makes me think less of Quixtar. They have taken this kind man and turned him into a liar, even though he doesn't know it. They have him completely snowed. The sad thing is, I am having a personal meeting, one on one, with him tonight. I do plan on telling him of my findings and I am going to turn down the incredible business opportunity he is trying to give me. However, I know how "into" Quixtar he is. We will end a 10 year friendship because of this.

I have spoken with many people now on their experiences with Amquix and not one of them has a good thing to say about it, except for the people trying to get me into this business.

I have read that they have taken you to court over your website and glad to see that the the suit was dismissed. I have found your website more than informative. It is well written and extremely appreciated.

I just wanted to tell you thank you. Your site has really opened my eyes.
Kari J.

Scott,

I appreciate your time and effort. I've been searching the web for information about Marker Man Productions (MMP). It is clear that is was spun out of Amway and the efforts of Jody Victor, but I've been unable to find much else. Do I correctly assume that what applies to Quixtar applies to MMP, or does it have a better business model than what Amway utilized.

Thanks for your time.

Zach

I just joined quixtar and feel that I should not have. Is there any time period to change my mind or refund or something? I made my first order and realize that it is not enough points and really is all I use for a month so I won't make enough points to earn even if I sign up people under me who will. Any input will be appreciated.

Scott: have fun with this web page I found through Goggle from back in '99!

Discover the New High-Tech, High-Touch
World of Marketing

Book Description
On September 1, 1999, the multibillion-dollar DeVos and Van Andel families will launch Quixtar.com, an e-commerce site that industry insiders believe may well surpass the size and revenues of such Internet behemoths as Ebay and Amazon.com. The Quixtar Revolution tells the inside story of how Quixtar was created, why it promises to make Internet history, and how it is going to change the way we do business in the 21st century.

Rushed to market with exclusive interviews and up-to-the-minute information on Quixtar's much anticipated launch, this book reveals why Quixtar's high-tech, high-touch business model will become the new archetype for successful commerce in the new Internet economy.

The Quixtar Revolution includes interviews with some of the top global business leaders affiliated with Quixtar, such as Paul Miller, Bill Florence, Tim Foley, Jody Victor, Jim Floor, Jim Dornan, Fred Harteis, Bert Gulick, Brian Hays, Bo Short, Brad Doyle, Andy Andrews, and Chuck Vogt. Also interviewed for the book was John Parker, Director of Business Relations for Quixtar.

The Quixtar Revolution, which promises to be one of the first best-sellers in the new millennium, also includes a number of interviews with some of the nation's top Internet and e-commerce experts including Gene DeRose, the CEO of Jupiter Communications, Stephen McCarty of Microsoft, Seema Williams of Forrester Research, Ken Harris of Cannondale Associates, and David Rush of Kurt Salmon Associates.

I read briefly your ability to criticize someone else's opportunities to have a business of their own but like most demoncrats they offer no other solutions. You have the arm chair quarterback, back sit driver mentality and I hope someday you have a dream worth living out. Show your profit margin on your 'job' after taking out all the bills it takes. If you had stock to sale on you, it wouldn't be worth more than Enron's right now. later. dale

Have you ever actually tried Quixtar? Do you agree with the business concept? If quixtar is such a bad company, why are hundreds of partner stores affiliated with it? Quixtar's initial costs are very low, and do not involve much risk at all. Why would you not try to make this business work when you have people above you in it, helping you to suceed and become financially independant? Do you have a boss? Does he/she make more than you? Doesn't every dollar you produce for the company go to them? Can you ever make more than your boss in your company? NO! How is employment not a pyramid?? How many hours do you work a week? How much do you get paid?

How much effort did landing that job require? Is you money worth sacrificing time with your family for? Why not get the best of all worlds? Try quixtar, or at least, stop fibbing about it. Joe

Hi Scott,

I am writing to you as an IBO and a fellow information hog. I have appreciated much of your site and the detail into which you probe the issues. I also appreciate that you publish the responses of enthusiasts as well as the negative folk. I don’t get the sense that you particularly hate the industry, quixtar itself, their products, or the founders. You just hate the "spin" that gets put on the facts. Like the rest of us you hate being lied to. I get the impression, from your alternate compensation plan, that you would consider the business to be a sound opportunity if they adopted a new way of compensating the newest person. I have run many of the same analysis and found similar results but in the end found different ways to interpret what they mean to me and my business.

I grew up in the Amway business. My parents were profit sharing directs in those days. There was no system. They ran their business as a business and made great money and helped others make great money. They actually sold stuff (funny that) and people came first (a lost art in general). Most of all they had a lot of fun. I remember the meetings and I remember the friends. These were the days when the product was basically cost competitive because consumables really did have a markup. There was no Wal-Mart and Costco whose markup is 5% or less and whose money is made, not on individual products but by their logistics companies and turning the shipment over in 30 days and investing the money for another 90 days before you pay for it. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. It was just a different time.

The fundamentals were selling (hard work), people, and service. Simple right? One thing that glared out at me when I read the FTC vs. Amway ruling transcript was how the judge was impressed because DeVos and Van Andel always stressed "working hard" and "selling". There never was a free lunch when the founders were flogging the opportunity. That impressed me. Just like in the Directly Speaking Transcript where he tells the Directs that if they are "lying" (strong word) to people they need to cut it out (paraphrase). He never pulled any punches when he talked to his people. Whether he was able to successfully implement the measures that he talked about is another matter. I believe that with the way they set up the company, to be heavily directed by the diamond board (to give the field a huge say in how things run for the sake of "freedom"), things got sticky when the Yeager block had the majority in the boardroom. I know of mistakes DeVos made but ultimately I believe in the man’s integrity.

My parents, who focused on these elements in their business, ultimately were no matches for the negative publicity generated by the Yeager antics. Unfortunately, when a business is held together by goodwill it is hard to combat innuendo and being associated with freaks (for lack of a better word) that don’t espouse your beliefs but share the same name (just ask your average Muslim right now).

All this to say that I believe that the premise of the founders was and is valid. But changes have gone on, economically and socially, that could have been addressed better. This goes for the corporation and the "systems" which I regard as separate entities.

1. Somehow the focus shifted from selling to recruiting.

1. Selling is promoted only secondarily to recruiting. Why? Because people are afraid of selling. It is easier to recruit someone else in hopes that they will be brave enough to actually sell something while you just personally consume.
2. Is it really because the products are too expensive? I don’t think so. Are the products more expensive than a lot of what you find out there? Sure. But what industry doesn’t have overpriced products? And what industry doesn’t have successful companies that sell overpriced products? How do you make up for it when your product is more expensive than the competition? You have to do it with exceptional service. Just like the little store trying to compete against Wal-Mart. Have you ever tried to get service at a Wal-Mart? I have never got good service at Wal-Mart. That is not their job. Their job is to get it to me cheap. When I get fed up with them I find a small busines to go to that knows I am alive.I can’t compete with Wal-Mart's prices. What I can compete with is service. For example, That is why when I sell (note that word) Nutrilite products to people I choose to provide 3^rd Party information on the ailment they are trying to eradicate. It has nothing to do with my product per se and it makes no claims but it is something extra; that service and relationship that is missing elsewhere in the market. Service is what keeps all of those small businesses at the SBA going. Those businesses make up the bulk of our economy. So the lesson is "when you can’t compete on price, compete with service" just like a regular business.
3. I have found that you can’t just take the average Joe and tell him to change over all his buying habits to Quixtar. The numbers from the corporation support this too. The average IBO only consumes something like 40 points or $40 a month in product. Pretty hard to build a business that way because few will attack the product line like that. But what it says to me is that people buy a few products that they like and are generally loyal to that. So…. Why not just choose a product line you like and value and become a professional marketer of that product line? Take travel amagifts for example. And once you are able to make some money with that line as a professional marketer (notice I didn’t say full time) hey! Why not show someone else how to have his or her own small business? All the tools are in place to make that a real and viable option. That is the beauty of Quixtar to me. You have so many lines to chose from and if you want to expand and take on another product line later great. The problem is that this approach takes time and patience and determination. People don’t want to hear these things generally. So we go back to point 1a. But what does it take to make it in a regular business? Pretty much the same thing. Get one thing that works and duplicate it.
4. If you learn nothing else from Quixtar or network marketing learn how to sell. Your education in sales will cost you next to nothing. You may find you suck, you hate it, you hate you, who knows. Doesn’t get much cheaper than the cost to join. Plus if you can sell products from a company everyone "knows about" and has this inherent distrust for… you can sell anything to anyone. There are wonderful tools to learn the psychology of selling and the skills to present and posture. Quixtar’s business to business sales training is top notch. Some systems have decent materials as well.
5. I still love that I don’t have to carry inventory and I can have it shipped anywhere in N.A. in 36 hours. The inventory I do keep is negligible to satisfy the eager beaver that wants it now. If you are specializing like I am proposing you won’t have a lot of skus to stock anyway. I will take a bit less in up front commission if I don’t have to worry about all that stuff. I have owned other businesses and when it was all said and done, after overhead and the nature of carrying inventory, my margins weren’t much more than the markup on coreline products (some months it was less). So why not skip the headache of inventory? The infrastructure is a big plus. I work for a fortune 150 company. Their profits routinely hover around 4% of gross revenue. Not much different than breaking a platinum.
6. Bottom line people generally like the quality of Coreline products they just bicker about the price. Every IBO knows people who hate "the business" but like some product or other. So make it worth their while.

1. The "Systems"

1. I am glad you inferred that some are better than others on your site. I have certainly found that. I run into people all the time that used to spend 8, 10, 12 dollars a tape. They spent 500 dollars a month on "system" stuff. I was horrified. I have heard it justified every which way you can think of. I still don’t agree with that amount of money. That is uncalled for.
2. I really don’t have a problem with someone making money from the training materials. I was lucky. I was in a system that only charged me $6 Canadian for tapes at its worst. My upline diamond compensates IBOs officially at the platinum level and sometimes unofficially for those with a minimal number of tapes going through every month. Not bad. It’s not the same as what TIF was proposing but it’s better than any other system I know of. They always told us that if someone just got in to buy wholesale then they had no cause to be on the educational program. It was only those intending to build that needed the info and positive reinforcement.
3. Towards the end of Amway some of the info got pretty shabby and useless. I asked my diamond about that later because things just weren’t working. He told me not to worry. It wasn’t anything I was doing wrong and that no one was making money then. They were scrambling trying to find a way to make things grow. They came out with tool after tool trying to get a dying model to work. Didn’t happen. When Quixtar was announced the system leadership said publicly "we are in a transition period. We are going to make a lot of mistakes." And for the first year of Quixtar not much was different from Amway. Same old Schlock. But the second year they came out and changed their whole approach to the content of tools. Tools now had to make sense in a "business" context rather than a "quixtar" context. Now we had useful skills being taught by outside professionals on economics, sales, psychology, business, technology, tax law, cashflow management and product. Instead of quixtar being the business you got in to get out of your job it became one of multiple streams of income. Our seminars included the need to diversify into multiple areas of wealth. This business was part of an over all portfolio which needed to include property, paper assets and business assets because all markets fluctuate.
4. This year they started actively teaching sales skills. Whaddayano. Back to basics. Sell something. Give service. Get paid. Teach someone else to do that and get paid more. That sounds like traditional business leverage.
5. I know that this is not your typical system mentality. As you say on your site the lesson here is that you have to go shopping for your upline these days. Not all systems are created equal. People have to educate themselves on all types of businesses. How do they make money? Most of the time it is not the way we think they do. How do those principles line up with this business? How are they the same? How are they different? Is the difference an advantage or a disadvantage? If it is a disadvantage how do we overcome that? What advantages do we have? You can’t take the system at face value sometimes. Sometimes when you dig around in other types of businesses you come back and appreciate some things better about what you have been told to do.

Anyway Scott I thought I would share some of these conclusions I came to after exhaustively researching businesses. There is good stuff here. Solid business principles to be used to profit from Quixtar. For the longest time I didn’t know why guys like Trump would get on TV and say "if I had to start over again I’d get into something like Amway". Now I get it. The challenge is getting the right people to do it with and to help you. The key for anyone wishing to profit from Quixtar is to learn about business and expect it to take a while. We are all used to thinking like employees. It takes a while to change the thinking and to develop a new skill set.

If you have any questions or comments please feel free to write me. This letter was in response to your thought-provoking site and was primarily for your eyes Scott. I would appreciate you contacting me beforehand if you plan to publish this on your site.

Have a great day,

D

For your Info Alticore is the Parent company for amway and quixtar--they are not on in the same. Also in one paragraph an IBO states that "I spent $250 at Quixtar for what would cost $200 at Walmart, but I got $135 back" if you do your math thats a savings of $$$85.00..a saving is still a saving...-New IBO

First page, Under Buss. Results 2002, 2nd sentence.. "Alticor, Formerly Amway", then states that "Quixtar assumed control of N American Amway Buss".. Also you repedidley refer to "AmQuix" whats that. Also You have blended data from Amway and Quixtar.. Since they are separate-- like you already know-- how can you create graphs and references that go back farther than '99 (pg 2,17),.I understand that you are doing a buss. analysis-- but you needseparaterate the data, statistics and products. Do your analysis of amseparaterate from your analysis of Quixtar. You are correct in saying that Quixtar does sell amway products.. but they also sell name brands, anythingying that you can think of. Just like any buss. they htheirhier "own" brands and they have others. Sams club for instance has a sams club brand, so does safeway, albertsons, shoprite.. ect. Also may I ask you a question?? Why have you spent your Time and Money to put all this together.. for money?? How many hours does all this take.. If we did a analysis would you be makeing 1-2-3-4 dollars an hour or $0.00..

Also Im not talkingreferringring to Amway in my discussions.. Quixtar. When I got into this my upline toldstraightrate out that some of the products are cheaper, some the same, and some more.. As with any where you shop. but if someone is smart they will buy what they know is cheaper or the same and get the rest at the store. I think part of the problem is that

Amway has a rep. BUT Quixtar is not Amway. Everything that my upline has told me has been true. If its a better deal to get it elsewhere then do so. Also I like how you use 8 hrs as your base line.. ive spent little to no time on this-- if i was interested in my hrly rate i would work at an hourly job-- Im in the military- If you want to talk Hourly pay i make

pennies on the dollar-- being on call 24-7-365. Everyone that does this does it for diff reasons.. to save money, make money, find something to relate too.. or the chance that it might work! I will not make any enemies doing this, i will tell all my friends and family-- if its not for them i wont ask again.. The Quixtar team that im apart of is going about this in a

good way. Its not possibleanalyzelyse "Quixtat" in general when diff. teams spread the word in diff ways!

Last thought-- if i choose to by SA-8 and it is a few dollars more than Tide and it cleans my clothes and my wife likes it what diff does it make?? I could buy the cheapest detergent at the store or i could spend the most on tide.. Some of this buss is convenienceence of having my things sent to my house-- how can you put a dollar amount on your Time-- time not spent going up and down every isle at grocercier.. Some people dont have a Discount supper store near by or even a ggrocercier.. like in my case!! So if i can similarllar products at about the same price i will- and to boot ill get some money back..so those product that were a little more now are the same !!

-Thanks for you input-- but again how much money are you getting paid for this???

-C

Hi Scott,

We were in at one time also and gave it a lot of time and money but it never worked. They sold a fake dream and a high priced product. No one in the business would be friends after we left. We never made a dime. I don't think most of the upline is in any more either. Have a good day.

Robert

Scott -

It's good to hear from you, again. I am totally blown away by the massive deterioration and implosion of the Scamway/Quackstar operation, and by the high rollers who have been terminated. For Tim and Connie Foley to split blows my mind. But then again, my marriage was in trouble long before we became involved with the operation, and the three years spent "doing Amway/Quixtar" only made matters worse. So you can add my name to the divorce list.

It's a morbid curiosity that I hold for this once proud (?) organization, which held out hope for the little man. I have friends who will not admit to the implosion, and insist that they are receiving residual income from the operation. One had the guts to tell me "about $20/month"; the other, my sponsor, was characteristically evasive.

Keep me informed; like I said, it's a morbid curiosity.

Thanx!

Hi,

Thank you so much for this very informative site! I found it very helpful and most of all objective. It has all the information I needed to make my decision and the calculator is great. Thanks for saving me time and money!!

Best regards,

Marie Louise

Scott:

Hope you are having a wonderful holiday season.
I see that the ex-Diamond and Divorce pages continue to grow. It's great to see that.

I was able to retrieve some WWDB Profiles of Success. Don't know if you want to use this info for your website, but at least it's good background info.

To look at the big picture of an organization's health, I figure the total number of Diamonds and above in that LOS over several years can tell a story. Below are the numbers for WWDB from 1996-2001. Again, the source are from the Profiles of Success for each year. I did not include Bill & Peggy Britt in the numbers, even though they are in the profiles.

2001 (Quixtar's 2nd fiscal year) - 29 total Diamonds and above
2000 (Quixtar's 1st fiscal year) - 33
1999 (Amway) - 36
1998 (Amway) - 32
1997 (Amway) - 36
1996 (Amway) - 39

Interesting to see a general downward trend, even with Quixtar. The jump in numbers from 1998-1999 is partly due to the fact that two Diamonds returned to WWDB from ILD. ILD is led by Jack & Rita Daughery who split from WWDB in 1994 or 1995 and took several Diamonds with them.

Scott:

Below are the new WWDB Diamonds in the Pin Winners page.

Apr 97 - Faught, Steve & Shauna
Feb 97 - Lowary, Gary & Dorothy
Jan 97 - Kim, Eugene & Sarah

Apr 96 - Attalah, Samir & Theresa
Apr 96 - Danzik, Howie & Susan
Jul 96 - Marshall, Rick & Bonnie
May 96 - Golden, Hal & Michelle

Dec 95 - Foglio, Joe & Norma
Feb 95 - Gilmour, Greg & Kathy
Mar 95 - Jao, Rod & Rowena
Mar 95 - Tsuruda, Theresa
Sept 95 - Koning, Larry & Julie

Apr 94 - Ansley, Darel & Kathleen
Apr 94 - Sears, Randy & Sandy
Aug 94 - Woods, Mike & Michi
Dec 94 - Carroll, Mike & Robin
Jun 94 - Radford, Frank & Sheilagh
Jun 94 - Harimoto, Scott & Cris
Jun 94 - Tsuruda, Matt & Sandee

Feb 93 - Shores, David & Debbie.

Apr 93 - Harstad, Jim & Julie
Aug 93 - Timko, Dave & Mary

Ted & Michelle Becker (Mar 97) - ILD, returned to WWDB in 1999.

Nothing new for the ex-Diamond page. I just about exhausted all those archive pages.

Also, other pieces of info on WWDB. WWDB has a very large presence in South Korea, over 100 Diamonds I was told to the best of my memory. All downline from Leonard & Esther Kim. This obviously helps explain Amway's growth in Asia.

Besides Eagle and Double Eagle, WWDB also has the River Rendezvous. Qualifications are (best of my memory):
7500 or above total PV.
At least 7 legs at 100PV or greater.
At least 3 legs at 1000PV or greater.
Qualification time frame June 1 to July 31 of following year (14 months).

Good evening Scott,

I got a phone call tonight from my upline Platinum who informed me of an email he got from Quixtar regarding down line that receive differential volume bonus and self report sales from inventory.

The corporation stated that he would be responsible for ensuring items that down line comply with the member volume rule. Basically, my Platinum is just looking to cover himself; essentially this is not a problem since I have significant of inventories from active days.

Upon further discussion he did in fact confirm the Don Storms was essentially out. He explained the Don was involved in bringing people in to a Ponzzi type scheme and among the many ethical issues one was involving non-personal down line in business ventures. My Platinum knows Don well as well as investors who were burned. It appears extremely unlikely Don will resurface. Most down line below silver have no clue as to the scope of this situation.

He did say it was some kind of investment fund in which Don brought people into. He believes Don's point was not to cheat the people, or even that he was part of the fund, just to help make good returns for them. The corporation might have warned him about the activity and he for whatever reason continued. Essentially when the scam fell apart burned investors sued every body involved and he got caught up in the whole mess. The figure that my upline threw out was a scam in significant excess of 17.5 million.

In summary, my Platinum further illustrated, with his litany of non-factual prospect type information the continued state of decay for Quixtar and the Yager system!

Subject: Time and Beeing Stupid

Scott, you have got quite a sense of humor. Like yellow pages in our country. Who cares about others opinion? I don’t.So, whats the purpose of this page? Are you disappointed in Amway? Try again. Want to help "poor souls"? Sorry, you cant.

Wish you long life, can suffer longer.

Former communist

Dear Scott!

Thanks for the answer and questions. I hope I didn’t harm your feelings in any way. Here are my answers:

Yes, I don’t care about others opinions, because it’s the cheapest good in the world. Did you ask for opinion your friend about your spouse? And he answered to you, that he doesn’t have any experience with her. And of course, because you value his opinion and you depend on it, you just borrow her to try her? OF course not. I have opinion of my own and that counts, I never waste time when I am doing something I want to do – not that I am being told what to do. A big difference. I am still interested what is the goal or purpose to gather "bad news"?

Yes, it is really interesting. I can’t believe myself too. But –in 1990 and 1991 former communist army" "convinced" me, that it’s better to believe what I saw than lose my life. Their tanks and bullets didn’t care about my history and political opinion. And I was really convinced that this is not for me any more – communism I mean.

I admit that everything is changing. I might be wrong again or might be not. That’s to me to find out. If I am wrong, what did I lose? Not much. If I am wright and don’t try? Uf, I can’t imagine. That’s the difference between winners and losers. Winners take risks, losers don’t. That’s all.

Of course I will help.! But poor doesn’t mean lazy. IF there is better opportunity (low risk,…..) I will take that. I don’t care, how much money others make. Important is, how much I make. Remember, you can’t feed hungry people from empty plate. Weak person can’t help another weak person. Those are the laws of nature, not Amway.

At the end, for me is purpose of attacking this opportunity the same as if we discus about colleges or universities. A lot of folks register, but few finishes studies. Is that fault of University? I don’t think so. The same is with Amway. Its meant for people above mediocre. And those are few. But even though everyone can benefit. And everyone can change. But most of people wont. So what? No big deal. Someone must work.

Sorry for bad grammar and spelling

With best regards

Drago

Hello, I have a friend who is all pumped up about quixtar. I want to know is Amway and quixtar one in the same?

I just went to a seminar at long beach California labeled team 5000. Is there anything to look out for?

Thank You,

Matt Scott

Scott,

My sister and her husband have been in the business for a few years now. Initially, about a year ago, I became suspicious about the business when I heard that she planned on being able to retire from her day job within a year. To me, that sounded unrealistic, and coming from someone who I knew to be a realist, it shocked me that she could fall for something like that.
Well, the year has come and gone, and I assume that she isn't close to being able to retire, because whenever anyone from my family asks her how much she makes from Quixstar, she won't answer.
I held off from confronting her about it for a long while, but finally expressed my doubts to her in a recent exchange of emails. It was only then that I learned of what I perceive to be a horrendous distortion of Christian principles at work within the business. In her latest email, she sent me what seemed to be scripted responses to many of my questions. One of my questions was this: how can the business point to those few within the ranks who are extremely wealthy, and use them as an example of "what you could have" (thus invoking a lust for monetary wealth), yet claim to be a business based on Christian principles? Her answer, in a nutshell, was that the monetary wealth gained by those in the business can be used to buy fancy cars and awesome houses, and that people outside the business would look at those fancy cars and awesome houses, and would instill in them a desire to know the God that blessed these people in the business with their riches. In other words, my sister has been fed the line that God wants her to flaunt monetary wealth as witness to his glory. Ahem. I'm not one to knock monetary wealth in and of itself, but to claim what Bill Britt and company are claiming here, and to feed people these distortions of truth, to me is unacceptable.
Ok... now that my rant is complete - what on earth can I say to my sister to get her to wake up?? I've used logic, I've pointed out fallacies, and shown her how the business distorts truth - all to no avail. Talk about brainwashed.

Thanks in advance,

Dear Author:

I am a Chinese college student, this semister, we are having ESEC course (Education Service Exchange with China), we are doing business research project. we decided to research Amway China Corporation. We have read your webpage on Internet about Amway business Analysis. I think it is very useful, can you send me Amway's annual report of Amway Asian and pacific district subsidiary, and relative document about Amway¡£ I am very appreciate you can send message to me.(rmjudy@sina.com), thank you very much.

Really nice job man! I can't just understand why isn't it worthy to get in such a "business" to improve my social skills!!! If you can't understand that people in Amway are building a network, then don't suppose they are door to door salesmen! Mentallity of people like you makes the world the way it is. "It's a sin to kill a mocking-bird..."

Anyway! Good luck with your anti-Amway efforts! The fact that you failed doesn't mean that I will fail in my business!!! Seeing my point is very hard for u!!! Just don't try killing people's dream and don't be so miserable as you are! Changing peoples words for your own purposes is vanity! No one is going to wait for you to listen to your tapes! They will go on and they will succeed. As far as products are concerned, you can't say they are expensive if you don't refer to the camparation criteria! If you can't do something with passion this is why you fail. It's a pitty to kill other people's dreams because of your failure!

I'd be happy to see you broke in 20 years! "My success is gonna be my revenge!!!" If you can't help other people be free, then, at least don't make them like yourself. I don't know you, you don't know me, but I hate you because today you almost killed my dream and my marriage. If I want, I can harm you but i would be pleased just to help you. I am too good to help you though. Stay in your misery and accept your faith as an employee and as a victim of those who want people to be slaves. I'm a free man and I don't need to fight idiots. But, whoever gets in my way, is going to regret the moment he did it!

A "victim" of Amway!!!

Scott:

I like your two new additions, the Pin Winners and especially the LOS page. Did a good job with WWDB. Will be interesting to see the info on other LOS develop.

Suggest number of qualified Diamonds for each year would be great for the history section. One can see the growth or decline of the LOS regarding high pins over time. Obviously your call.

For the WWDB.com site, Login is "guest" and Password is "dream"
Also, for 2001 the 4 major functions cost:
$65 - Dream Night
$85 - Spring Leadership
$260 for single room or $415 for double room - Family Reunion
$90 - FED

Best Regards,

Tim

Hello,

Keep up the good work.. I was in for 12 years and lost 60k.. Went direct 1 strong leg.. I sponsored 24-29.

Any way There is another diamond named Alan and Michelle Leineger (sp?) that have fallen out of qualification before as well as Danny Snipes EDC qualification (sponsor of John Huffstettler all in The Larry Winters group. Mike Bundy (personal to Larry Winters) did supposedly go Diamond Sept of 2002 at Free Enterprise.

Roy King adopted leg of Paul Miller went diamond by loaning cash to the weak non direct legs to purchase enough items for 6 months to get there. I heard it was a financing "program"

Mickey Hamlet did the same thing I have heard. He Left the business when Y2K scare was around and bought a farm and hid on it.

I made a dollar on every tape that went through my non-direct legs.

I made 20-30% on all books.

Keep up the good work.. sorry for bad grammar and typo's.

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