Site Visitor E-Mail May 2004

Steve and Heidi Sarkela are definitely divorced. Heidi has left her children and moved to Washington State.

We were in Steve and Heidi's group when they split up. Very strange couple. They had been together since they were 16 years old. They had 5 or so kids. (they were both still in their early 30's). They were (appeared to be) deeply religious. Heidi has always been a little strange...one day, she just told Steve she loved someone else and moved to Washington state without her kids...Ages ranging from 16 down to 3 or so...very shocking.

Also, our emeralds, Jim & Julie Conroy, left the business. The story that the Sarkela's and the Knickmans gave us at the time was that he and Steve Sarkela had a personality conflict, but Jim admitted to us that it had something to do with tools...of course this was in 1998 or 1999 so it was all kept very hush, hush...

Who knew what a mess this would be? I haven't read anything on your site about Ed & Rose Knickman. They are EDC's. They are a part of Steve Woods Org. Very close with Steve Woods, Tim Foley & Louie Carillo...have you heard anything about them?

Thanks for your site. It helps to know that my husband and I are not crazy or losers...Its amazing how sucked in we were...

Scott,

I was looking on the web to see what if anything I could find on Quixtar because a friend and her husband are recruiting and truly believe this is their ticket to financial freedom. I ran into your site and I am very glad that I did after reading what you have to say and that it is part of Quixtar. I will be attending free meeting tomorrow and if there is anything additional you would like me get from the meeting I would be very interested in helping you compile additional info for your site.

My friends are well educated so I assumed they wouldn't be hooked by Quixtar and showed an interest in the program. I sent my friend an email about the special I had seen on Quixtar and how crooked they were and was assured they are nothing like them so I was surprised to see that in fact they are. After visiting their site and not being able to see how they made money I was leary and sought out more info and luckily ran into your site. Thank you, I may have been hooked as well.

To help others avoid this same mistake I would be glad to get any additional info you want or need by attending the free meeting. Thank you again for your site, truly a money saver.

Sincerely,

Jean

Scott,

I was involved for nearly 10 years from 1990-91 to 2000. All the logic in the world could not pull me out of the business, I was a "lifer," until one night, after so long in the business, I held a party to include all my "friends." We had a full spread, the best food, etc. Turns out, I was only as good as $6 I paid for a local plan, or nuts and bolts, or $1000 for a major function, which included hotel, air fare, plane tickets, function tickets, meals, books, tapes, etc.

One person showed up- my friend and faithful downline. I had a small organization personally, but I was well known in the group in my city, because I was the person who put our local group onto the internet before that was "taken over" by the upline diamond organization, and became a tool they could make money off of.

You would think after 10 years somewhere along the way, you would get a clue. Trouble is, the tapes teach you not to think. Quitters never win, and winners never quit. Instead, you trade away your normal thought process for each line you learn from tape or from the diamond, or direct above. I have been out of the business now, for about 4 years, inactive for nearly 5. After 10 years, whenever I am prospected I am able to listen for all the lines. I keep thinking, "yes, I heard that on tape", or "I heard that at a function", or "I was taught to say that" etc.

The blinders came off for me when I realized my friends were not my friends. All the logic did not matter. However, even now, I realize, as a Christian, there are so many reasons not to do the business- chief among them I think is this...

The Bible teaches us to have security in Christ, not security in money. In fact there will be times of want and times of plenty. The business teaches materialism, and replaces Christ, with the Golden Calf. We are taught to build our golden calf, our directship, and have security in that, and then we can live our lives. For all the talk of salvations at functions, where the only "christians" that you can listen to on stage, are the ones who have "made it," ( nevermind the spiritual conditions of even the newest people, who might just be further along spiritually), those who come forward are accepting a "gospel" based on materialism, not on faith in Christ- for this Christ they preach condones their materialistic pursuits. Didn't you know, that Jesus sponsored his 12 Apostles, and they sponsored other churches, and so on? (sic).

In my 10 years, I blew through (F)amily, (O)ccupation, (R)ecreation, (M)oney/Message with about 400 people per year, or about 4000 or so, give or take a few hundred. Instead of reaching out to them for the Lord, or for their needs, or just being real with them, they were useless to me if they said no to the business. I was going to be rich enough to give to God. Money was a "tool" in my hands, I was taught.

Money is a tool in anyone's hands the way a jackhammer is a tool to a newbie construction worker, or worse, dynamite is to a laymen. Either does more damage in the pursuit of it, and is likely to be damaging once received, unless properly managed from His perspective. The idea that we can control large sums of money, and that we should seek out to achieve large sums, and then live, is foolhardy. If we store up treasure for a later day, the Lord says we are fools, our very soul will be required of us .

I was inspired to write because my mother said there had been a 60minutes special recently that I did not see, and a family member is being prospected by friends who are sucked into the void.

If this message helps anyone, or makes up for the thousands of people I could have helped in their time of need, I hope it helps.

Kind Regards,

Mark

Hi Scott, some of the stories I have read send me cold with reminders of my nightmare 3 years in this amway nightmare between 1992 -5,

I am still living with the huge cost of losing really good friends and my girlfriend who's loss I will never get over.

I curse the day I was bullied in. I still get phone calls to this day from time to time from up line thieves who have tried to re-invent themselves, when I have called back under some alias telling them lies to see that they reveal themselves like the liars they are it just makes me even more angry. eg '' oh hi Carlton I met you in a petrol station where you said to me that you played guitar too when you saw mine' stuff like that knowing full well they did not have a musical bone in their body!

I remember being out of work and when you are desperate for a solution they seem to hit you harder with books tapes functions and all that *hit, I remember driving a 300 mile round trip with no insurance no road tax and scrounged money for the petrol to attend a weekend function where I slept in the car because I could not afford the hotel, it was one of the worst experiences in my life and all I was getting was a hard time for not wearing a suit on the second day. I was hungry and desperate and my up line had a spare bed in his room and offered jack! despite him being a 'new good friend!'

The best day of my life was when I just stopped associating with those false crooks and found a full time job.

I noticed when you spoke to people they were so false and were always looking for more 'important' people to talk to. at functions. There was a real middle class snobbery and almost no respect for other peoples' religious beliefs,

When I heard that these up line thieves make money from books tapes and all that *hit it makes me so angry! I recently found the courage to speak to the friends that i still have and said I was so sorry for ever getting them involved, SOME HAD BEEN SUCKERED IN BY ME!

I long for the day when the likes of Angelo Nardone the NY gangster thief and all his ambots become penniless, I notice the word Amway is not used so much now, so much for the 'proud' to be Amway crap!

Now with the advent of the internet which was not available in my day people can see the truth, I think ultimately the business is doomed as it bring out's the very worst in peoples greed and gives you an air of arrogance that will kick you in the arse when you finally see sense and give this stupid business up.

Dear Mr. Scott,

First of all I would like to congratulate you put up so much of facts about Amway and Quixtar on the website.

I totally agree with the facts on your site that this whole business is illegal.

I have been recently approached by Quixtar people who are friends and they did exactly same as you have mentioned.

Their whole emphasis was on to buy for your own consumption and make a chain of people who will do the same.

My wife and I did some research of our own to find out if we can generate 100PV /month and off course Price of the products were was one of the parameter. So we listed the products we buy every month and also every 2 months or quarterly. In the process this is what I found out.

  1. First and foremost we found it would be extremely difficult to achieve 100PV unless we start buy thing we do not use (and at a higher price than other Wholesale stores).
  2. Retail prices for Quixstar products were 150-200 %( based on per usage basis) marked up compared to prices in Sam's club. So there was no Q of doing resale or retail sale.
  3. We could not list 1 single item (except for Vitamins which we buy from SAMs club)
  4. My IBO friends!!! Said to me that I do not have to buy anything from the site and just need to make a chain and if they consume I will get their PV. Which is not really true (which I found out from my research)? You have to do your share of PV to reap the benefits of the chain below.
  5. and Yes all the IBOs failed to mention the other expenses in this process such as:
    1. Baby sitting, if you have 1 baby you may end up spending $300-400/month
    2. Expense of buying samples.
    3. Expense of buying educational material.(which turns out to be very expensive as it could be $50-60/month)
    4. Expense of creating network (Gas, Time and cost of entertaining your network)
    5. In short the cost of running the IBO business is well above $700-800/month and this goes up substantially as you grow your network.
    6. LIFESTYLE Time- which is focus of IBO when they are preaching Quixtar. Is really lost in this practice (exactly opposite to what they will preach) and this comes form my experience for seeing my friends who are into this business. They are out every single evening and weekend meeting their prospective IBO. They have a 2 year old daughter who they rarely see as mostly her Grand mother is baby sitting her when her parents are out fishing for future IBOs.

I wonder why not some US attorneys or somebody take both of these organizations and any other such organization to court and punish them for what they are doing to the families.

My wife and I are really thankful to you to put up an all this information. I have saved this as my favorites and will show it to all of my friends to save them from the evil clutches of these IBOs.

Thanks again, we really appreciate all the efforts that you have put into this.

Mr. Larsen,

Let me first start by saying I am in complete awe of your site. It has helped me ensure that any decision that I make will at least be logical.

Now, down to business. I am a senior at a midwestern university. I am not a business major, nor do I have an overwhelming aptitude for business. Much like the majority of people, I have been approached by a very good friend of mine from high school. As is generally the case, he is incredibly excited about the "plan."

The "plan" has gained strength on college campuses due to the worry that many students have of being unable to find a job after graduation. This opens the door for people that have a smooth tongue, although forked, to weasel their way into a position of "mentoring." My generation, in all honesty, had a fairly easy run of life. For many of us in college, we have never had to worry about money so of course we generally don't know how to spend it wisely let alone make any. Many of us want what the Quixtar "plan" proposes, an easy way to make a boatload of money. College students especially need to be wary of these proposals. While debt is ever present lurking just over the horizon, jumping head on into something like this could very easily allow the debt that has been compounding to build at a ridiculous rate.

It's strange. College campuses across the country offer classes and assemblies to promote wise spending habits dealing with credit. However, nothing is said of the risks inherent to an IBO though the types of systems that are established. I have no horror stories, and in all honesty I would like to think my life will remain that way. However, the people that have given their testimonials on your web page are the few brave enough to stop.

At my "introduction" so to speak, the terms "winners and losers" were used a lot. What a way to convince someone to follow blindly, tell them they are a loser, break down their ideas and rebuild them in the mold that has been established. Amazing how cultlike that seems. (Sarcasm really needs to translate through email) It amazes me that my generation, and those younger than me, will fall right into the line of drones, hoping to one day become a diamond.

Once again, your site is extremely informative, and rather unbiased since both sides are represented and nothing is taken out of context, save the possibility of audio quotes. I was honored to happen onto your site, and I hope that more of my generation happens to do the same. It will save them years of trauma, mainly financial, and hopefully end the reign of the "Pyramid sceme."

Thank you again for your site, and your willingness to put the information out there where it needed to be.

Matt

My friends are involved in it, it's starting to drive me crazy... They are my roommates, and are totally different people now... They are consumed by this thing, they are both 24, just out of school got good new jobs, and are naive as hell.... I found your website very helpful, I asked them several questions, and of course the response I got was come to our meeting Tuesday night... I would go to see the other perspective but I have class.... The funniest thing, is watching them get home from work, then change in to a suit... Then over hearing them talk, the money should be rolling in soon... Or did you hear that line (from a tape/cd) "If I do what they do, then I will become what they are, but if I follow you then I become brainwashed" anyways thanks for the info, there isn't whole lot out there about Quixtar, if you know of anything that would be great..thanks

I am not a new prospect but rather have been in for 2.5 months. About a week ago my husband and I asked for our money back because we thought it was all about Quixtar. But come to find out our up line told us last month he made 60% of his check from the LOS and 40% from Quixtar. In my opinion Quixtar is legit but the teams that make a raking from all the promotional tools and junk are a fraud. So we asked for our money back and they did give it back. But we made it very clear that we still wanted our IBO number for Quixtar. Come to find out, without our written consent they tried to take our IBO number away. Well when we could not log on to Quixtar we called them and they said we are still paid up and they gave us a new password and we could then log on. With in a week or so our LOS got mad because we were still on the LOS tree and they called us and told us we needed to sign a piece of paper saying that we give up our IBO number. We called Quixtar and asked if we had to do this and they told us on a documented tape that we do not have to. So we got the fax and we would not sign it, instead sent a letter saying we would not give up our IBO number. We sent it off to them and within 2 hours or so they called and said we needed to sign this paper and I informed them that I called Quixtar and they said I did not have to. She then got a little offended and said that it was not fair that I be on in the group and not work the system. Because I could sign people on and not be with the LOS and yet be on their "team". I told her that is what I wanted because if their is something that I want from Quixtar, I can get it with no problem, because that is why I signed on in the first place. I do not need to be bogged down by an entertainment group like ours. She told me that they were probably going to persue this. I am not sure to what degree if any. But I was wondering what exactly they can do? I'm I in the wrong? Should I give up my IBO and then wait 6 months and sign on again with Quixtar? I don't really want to do that though. I just hope they get shut down because it is not fair with how the rip you off with the material junk. I am glad my husband and I did not buy all that material junk. But we watched my brother in law spend a total of $1,000.00 in the first month and now he is regretting it. But he won't ask for his money back. I just hope nobody else out there does that although it is sad to say but a lot of people are spending a lot of money just to find out that it's a scam.( only a few really make the big bucks). Thank you for your web site I hope it helps others. Catch them before my LOS does!!

Scott, I have went to a recent Quixtar meeting featuring a famous Quixtar Diamond. I found it to be very strange that Steve wanted me to host a house party to try to get my friends involved and try to convince them they should pay$90 to come to the regional seminar. Steve has given me many tapes and they all seem to relay the same RaRA message. Steve seems to be programmed to sell this idea exactly the way most of these tapes try to sell the dream. I also find it strange that Steve never mentioned that Quixtar was Amway. I am really happy that I checked out your website before I committed any or money to this, because I have been checking this out for the last six weeks. I told Steve about a week ago that I did not think I would have time for this (not to mention my wife who has a MBA and is a VP for a Large Mortgage company was not exactly thrilled about me taking time away from our family, and also had several questions about this that Steve never answered) then Steve tells me, lets get you into the system so you can protect your spot and what's the worst thing that can happen you will get paid for the stuff you buy and later when you have more time you can work the business harder. This guy never lets up!!!! Thanks

Scott,

My husband was introduced to the business in 1987, shortly after our marriage. After seeing the plan I felt extremely uncomfortable about the business. I quickly learned that my zealous husband did not want to hear my doubts and our sponsor was encouraging him to have a bitter attitude towards me. For the sake of my marriage I decided to get "positive".

Our sponsors were the only upline in the area and their people skills were terrible. At one point I remember our sponsor asking my husband why he allowed me to read. Eventually our sponsor's, sponsor (who was a pearl at the time) encouraged us to move 1000 miles to be close to them in order to have more pure training. They also encouraged us to take out a business loan, which my husband did despite of my objections. There was no counsel given about making sure we were in unity about business decisions and this was devastating to our relationship.

We made the move and somehow the job my husband thought he had fell through. We were rented a house from our sponsor (he had moved out of the area but still owned this property). We soon discovered the roof leaked like a sieve and our children were playing in the many buckets of water. This was a constant concern to me but we were stuck. Before moving in our sponsor had looked me in the eye and promised the roof had been fixed!

Eventually my husband found work and I went to work as a maid/babysitter for our upline pearls (who were now going emerald). With this job I saw first hand the double life they led. From stage they talked of family togetherness, but I saw a man who traveled constantly (mostly without his wife and quite often with single women) to build the business. I saw children with serious behavioral problems from being left with teenage babysitters too often. When keeping the kids overnight, my emerald employers would only pay me for hours they estimated the kids would be asleep. These unruly kids kept unusual amway hours however!

I was asked to clear the house of "negative products" when their diamond sponsors came to visit. I wondered about this secrecy when they professed such a loving and tight knit relationship from stage. When filing I also discovered the people that recently crossed stage promoting their new debt free, retired (wife still working however) , Cadillac owning status really only made about $60 a month. I was quickly learning that my Christian upline was deceptive from stage.

Within a year of moving we financially crashed and burned. Our hard work never manifested much of a downline and p.v. and tools were extremely expensive. Our zealous move had taken us away from family and cost us financially. At this point my husband came face to face with what his dream had cost us and he was heartbroken. We moved from our sponsor's house and put our tapes and tools at the curb. Ironically a man stopped and asked if he could take them home because they would help him make money.

We lost a lot from being in the business both materially and relationally but we still had each other. We began to rebuild our marriage and value the things that really matter in life. I still remember the relief I felt the first time we skipped rally and actually did yard work like normal people. The money we saved that day sure came in handy for groceries!

We have had a good life and marriage since then but I am convinced if we had stayed in we would have been miserable, broke, and relationally poor.

Well, I didn't think I could do it, but I managed to put together an Amway parody using Paul Simon's "The Sound of Silence". (What's scary is how much of the song I left intact.) Hope you like it.

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
About a vision softly in creeping,
That left its seeds at an open meeting
The delusion that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of diamonds.

In restless dreams I played a tape
That was designed to motivate,
The tape explained to me how I should spend,
For all the functions that I should attend
Then my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a brilliant light
That split the night
Amidst the sound of diamonds.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People cheering without thinking,
People hearing without listening,
Hiding deep inside what voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the sound of diamonds.

"Fools" said I, "You do not know
The 'system' like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell...
And echoed in the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the amway god they made.
And the speaker shouted his warning,
In the words that he was forming.
And the guy said, "The words of the kingpins
Are written on the bathroom walls
In shopping malls."
And emulated in the sound of diamonds.

Hey scott,

I came upon your site a couple months a ago and it is a great site with lots of stuff. I appreciate all the time it looks like you took on it. I have been looking for something like this for 4 years. I got into the business in June of 99 and continued through September of 00. This guy I who I was not really good friends called me up to look at a business opportunity and to come and look at it. I said sure.....(I wish I hadn't said sure). He had a guy that was 2 people upline from him come and show the plan. I saw and said...what do I have to lose and it wasn't that big of an investment so I said sure...(once again I wish I hadn't said sure). After I started going to open meetings and other things it led to going to night owls and becoming core (100 pv, standing order, amvox, leadership standing order & finally standing order book)...all that stuff. What was I thinking. I should've mentioned that I was a born-again Christian when I got into the business.....

I was in the Britt/Miller/Winters/Joe Markewicz/Alan Lieniger line of sponsor ship...and actually when we went to some big Miller function in Greensboro, NC....(I don't know which one), me and some other people who flew down and didn't have to take the bus home were staying a little extra and we got to Joe Markewicz's home (EDC at the time).

Well we got to hang out in garage/clubhouse...we all got to take a picture by his yellow Ferrari. We had to leave early because we weren't 4000 pins yet. (Now why shouldn't I be able to hang with my Christian brothers-interesting) That was just a story I thought I would tell.

Now here is my story....this might seem a little weird. About the mid summer 2000 I felt so alone and alienated in my mind that now I found out that this was a "Christian" organization and this is what they were doing to spread the gospel, but how a "JOB" was so bad and all that stuff, working 40 hours a week for 40 years(which by the didn't have a negative effect on my mind)-note use of sarcasm. I thought how could God allow this to happen...I didn't ask for this (in my mind I didn't know these negative thoughts existed)..it felt like a door in my mind had been opened and no one else had these thoughts). It sucks when you are so depressed and then your upline shows up on the 700 club with Pat Robertson. I feel like God doesn't care and he has forsaken me and now everyday of my life is the same. Other Christians outside the "business" don't have to have these thoughts in their minds. If the big pins(Britt/Miller/Winters) are born again christians and they are "right". I must be in some kind of endless purgatory that is my life. I wish I never gotten into the business but who knew when I got in this would happen.

(sorry for the randomness of my letter, its something I had to spew from my brain) Thanks

and they could never find

What's this life for.....

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the updates. Now try this for fun: Read (or re-read) the classic Dr. Seuss story "Yertle The Turtle" and think about Amway kingpins while you're reading it. If you don't have access to a copy of the book, the link below will take you to an online version of the story however you really should try to get a hold of the book because the illustrations add quite a bit. Enjoy.

Scott

http://www.chuckwagner.com/yertle.html

I've got some TIF info for you. Both Marshall Douglas and John Trahune have left TIF and joined Oasis. They can't seem to make any money in TIf and have now left the ship. Also it's been said by Don Bindley the Ceo that they have only 3 to 6 months to survive. And if they don't start moving there will not be at IF anymore. Again if you use my name I'll never be able to get the info to say on top of what's happening. So I know your and upright guy and won't use my name. Also The Rummells are gone they have not been involved for quite some time. Tif did not want to go after Marshall or John because they did not have the funds to use on lawyers. They were steeling from the down line and where going to be keep in the line of sponsor ship but they have now decided its best for them to leave. The troops have not been told only a choice few in the Pilot study program. These trusted few are trying to say TiF. If you would like more info just let me know I'm the world's worst writer but I can talk up a storm.

Scott - long time no talk -

Don't forget to add my former upline emeralds Chuck and Dianne Fahnestock, in Harteis' group - he never had quit his job teaching at a community college, even though he went emerald.

They are nothing more than running ruby volume now. Liars.

Later -

HAVE A FREIND WHO JUST GOT SUCKED INTO THE QUIXTAR CULT. I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO HIM WHY THESE TYPE OF THINGS ARE A FAILURE.

BUT HE WAS DEEP IN TAPE LAND AND DID NOT LISTEN. YOUR WEB SITE MAY HELP ME TALK SOME SENSE INTO HIM NOW THAT I HAVE MORE DETAILS ABOUT THE QUIXTAR PYRAMID SCAM.

THANKS

Let me know how it goes.

He's done dealing with them. It didn't take much.
It's strange because I wouldn't have pegged him as someone who would be taken in by a cult. When I listen to the audio files you posted it sounds like a church preacher. It the perfect stuff to give people a wake up call to the scam.

Thanks again and keep up the great work.

Hi Scott

What do you do for real as a living? And, how much do you and your buddies make in dollars in keeping up the site and spending your life's seconds in doing this?

Just curious...

Hi Scott

Just looked through the list of divorced Pins on your site. Seems you've missed out on a pretty big one.

Dave and Pat McCune were the people who "brought" Amway into the UK and Ireland in the early 70's. (Upline was Glenn Schoffler) I was a part of their business from '93 to '95 in an Emerald leg - Stewart & Carol Melville. (Melvilles went Diamond in 1995) McCune had at least one other Diamond leg through Pat Stranney. Stranney's brother also achieved Diamond.

All 4 were from the same area in Northern Ireland and built their business primarily in the UK and Ireland.

I was told about 2 years ago that Dave and Pat McCune had divorced and that their Irish and UK business had been sold to Schoffler.

It seems Dave McCune went to Poland to carry on his business out there.

Dave McCune was one of the biggest proponents of the tools business. In the conversation I had with the ex-rep 2 years ago she told me that in 1996

McCune was pushing a training pack at a cost of 995. I believe that he and Stewart Melville fell out about this and it seems Melville cut the strings thathad bound him to his "mentor".

Anyway, Dave and Pat McCune are divorced. They were at the Diamond level.

Tony

This site seems to be a classic case of too much time on your hands. I am a former Amway distributor from the WWDB who did not make it only because I didn't put in the effort. For the five years I was involved I saw that the reason that the 99.9% didn't make it was that the effort was not put in. Successful people are always scrutinized by those who are not making it themselves. I spent about $20,000 in the Amway business over five years and learned more in that fives years in life than I did the previous 22. If you ask me, the money I threw away was in college spending the same thing with its own promises that didn't deliver. (Maybe you should start a site called "Univerledge.info" - University-College) And too think it is especially fun to print articles showing Amway divorces. I had to laugh. People in the Amway business who are successful aren't aloud having problems in their personal life. Too much. I think you should see it for what it is. Amway is simply a company that sells soap, it's the individual people that screw it up. I find it hard to believe that I am the only guy that didn't make it only because I didn't put in the effort. Gotta blame someone, can't be yourself. That's sounds typical. Any comments I'd love to hear.

Thanks,

Ken

Larry Beaman, who was just convicted in the Znetix scam, was involved in multilevel marketing through a company called Malluca (not sure on the spelling on that). I think he may have also been involved in Amway.

Two years ago my wife was caught up in "The Business" moment with the help of Gail (& Jack) Smith, who just happens to be the daughter of Ponzi kingpin Don Storms. It only took about a year for their "friendship" to destroy our family by not only selling her on the Ponzi investment, which she lost, but they even helped her move out of the house one morning when I left for work. They even stored "our" furniture for her free of charge while she moved into a "clients" furnished lakefront house! All this at the expense of a 4 & 6 year old, who now will be faced with the challenges of life while growing up in a broken home. With friends like this, who needs enemies!

Hello Mr. Larsen,

My husband and I are new to Quixtar and I am unsure of the BSM's and the role I need to play in the distribution. I feel we are being bombarded with people trying to talk us into going to every seminar and function and buy everything that they are selling. We know about the BSM compensation scheme, but not from anyone on Quixtar, only from our own research. I feel I cannot in good conscience push BSM's on people as it is being pushed on us. We do like the tapes, they are motivational, but we don't want to participate in all the functions and are getting a lot of pressure, sorry for rambling. What I am wondering, and am afraid to ask, is should we choose to leave our LOS do we loose our whole downline? I also want to know more about how others in MLM are utilizing Quixtar, my husband and I love the idea but I'm not so hot on all the BSM. This is so strange, I feel like I have to get this information secretly to avoid being blacklisted or something. How does Quixtar's compensation scheme differ from our LOS's. I don't want to make the majority of money from this business selling BSM's and it sounds like that is a big part of it. Thanks for your help!

We were Rubys in the Quixtar business as well as Founders Directs and left in 1999-2000 when we found out about the money flowing from motivational materials/upline fraud.

Why couldn't all of the past successful IBO's show up at the next major function closest to our home towns and go up on stage when Diamonds are introduced?? I personally would be happy to yell " FRAUD!! FRAUD!!" when they take the stage, and I bet many others would, too. We need to organize a protest at the next big event involving the Yagers/Britts, etc

Hey Scott,

Ron here again. I figured that it would be a good thing to get any and all updates to your site. Went to a "home meeting" at my in-laws the other night. Typical crap. No it's not a pyramid. No mention of the 70% "rule." Absolutely no emphasis on members/clients. Both my In-laws and My brother-in-law bought it. They paid their $240 to get started. Many heated discussions with the brother-in-law. I have tried (to no avail) to explain there is no such thing as easy money. I tried to explain that no other business puts all emphasis on "Recruiting" over the products/service that it sells. "They are selling the idea not the company." "They are trying to establish a Community." They are selling a scam and I can not convince them other wise. I asked most of the questions that you recommend and got very vague and incomplete answers. But hey what do I know? Oh the way that it was Explained that everything is in the form of a rebate. The more you spend the more you get back. I tried to liken it to the more coupons you use the more you save/ get back. I'm just ignorant I guess. Any legal advice? State-PA. You seem to have a good grasp on all of this stuff, how so? Thanks again.

I've been noting this recent scandal with curiosity - and the one before this, and the one before that. I've also ready the emails posted on your site. It's a great site, hopefully people are not just looking to validate whatever point they have in mind. Maybe you'll deem this worth adding to your website, maybe not. Hopefully it is worth my time to write an editorial that some of these folks could benefit from reading.

I am still a "Quixtar IBO", and previously an Amway Distributor. I no longer have downline. The did an interesting spin three years ago to "turn Amway into Quixtar" but most of them did walk the fine line of telling the truth. It was/is a separate corporation formed and supported by prior Ameriods. I have belonged to two different lines of sponsorship, in two different organizations for over 12 years. I continue because I like "ditto delivery" and used to be VERY loyal to certain products. When they first offered ditto-delivery it was the only service of its type available, and perhaps still offers the most practical and broad line of products that "people hate to shop for". However, since Rich and Jay no longer run the show the product quality and value has been declining. The ethics have always been questionable, but then, I never let anyone else impose their ethics on me - and is perhaps why I never had much success with building the business. In any case, my story and point.....

For about the first year I believed "the dream" that I could build a huge business selling their products, help others to do the same AND GET RICH. Was and is there peer pressure in these organizations? YOU BET!! But you had better learn to deal with peer pressure. Did I attend functions, buy books and tapes? OF COURSE! Within my budget, despite pressure from my sponsor telling me "I'd make it up in the future". By the way, delayed gratification was one of the good concepts taught in WWDB.

Then I figured out that

a) those rich people on stage were working 24x7x365 since they were traveling all over the world and doing all these speaking engagements. Where did the time to produce and sell all these materials come from?? Was this the family based lifestyle many promoted? NOT in my mind! I was not interested in "living" my business. I work to live, not live to work. If you look at the extremely rich executives in ANY business - for most, their whole life is their job or business. (DUH NUMBER ONE - believe what you see, not what you're told).

b) that none of the people that were walking across the stage during "pin recognition" were only working 15-20 hours per week and making huge incomes. If you REALLY talk and listen to these people and work the business, you can plainly see you have to be in the top 2-5% to be one of those rich people up on the stage. (DUH NUMBER TWO - if it seems to good to be true, it usually is.)

c) That many of the people and support materials contained valuable information. If I took my blinders off, maybe I could make use of some of the things that successful people teach. (DUH NUMBER THREE = take what you learn and make something of yourself).

I am currently self employed, work mostly from a home office and am successful at running my own business as an Accounting Software Reseller. Me and my family DO live the American Dream. No, we're not rich. No we're probably not going to be millionaires.... but how many people REALLY think money is what life is about??

I would NOT be doing what I am doing today, living a LIFESTYLE OF MY CHOICE IF IT WERE NOT FOR MY AMWAY EXPERIENCE!!! In many ways I think the "Amway experience" is more valuable than a college education!! People look at me in SHOCK when I say this. I am not ashamed of my experience and am quick to tell people they are PROBABLY NOT going to get rich. BUT, if you want to learn what it takes to be self employed DO IT! (but don't quit your job) Each of the top leaders DO have something valuable that you can learn. How to sell, how to handle rejection, how to organize your life around a business, how to stay motivated (reading educational or self improvement material for 15-30 minutes a day never hurt anyone!), how to plan your finances, how to set goals, how to think big... the pressured sales of the books and tapes (they are getting rich on) contain VALUABLE information. You can go buy Brian Tracy, Zig Ziglar and many other and learn the same things with no sales pressure though!!

Just DO NOT be a deer in the headlights waiting for someone to take your hand, tell you every step to take and deliver you to "your destiny of success". It's NOT going to happen. One thing that Americans used to understand, a hundred years ago or so, is that they were responsible for their own lives, decisions and destiny. Our Bill of Rights provides us with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. YOU ARE FREE TO DECIDE WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO, WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY AND HOW TO GO ABOUT IT. IT'S YOUR JOB!! Take responsibility for your own life, your own decisions, and get over your mistakes. (yes, that is hard) If you made bad choices based on questionable promises made by someone in Amway or Quixtar learn from it. Maybe they lied - maybe they didn't. It's a fine line. Did you read the 4400?? Last time I saw that document that average income of an Amway distributor was published at $68 per year!! My sponsor did not point this out. This is in the SAME DOCUMENT that says how you COULD get rich. Are you special? Or did you think that the $68 per year was just the stupid ones?? Do you know the true definition of average?

Life is IN THE LIVING. Figure out what you like to do, what you are good at, what you know a lot about and then make a plan on how you are going to take those traits and turn then into success. What works differs from person to person; as much as we are all different. But you are responsible for YOUR DECISIONS.

I caution you that if you are that unable to think clearly and objectively, or are easily misled, that perhaps self employment and business ownership is not for you. There are scoundrels in EVERY BUSINESS, Really, Take what you learned, which is perhaps more than you think, AND MOVE ON!!

Hi I used to be an ibo, I was just looking up info. To convince my ex-upline (a friend) that things aren't always what they seem to be. Anyway I met the Lyons at a convention in North Carolina, very charming, (the woman anyway) I can't remember the son's name, I think Tony, but anyway at the time (summer 2001)the son was also very close to becoming diamond. It's amazing to me that people get suckered out of sooo much money (after $7,000, my life savings, mind you I was 18 y/o)

I had enough sense to know that even if I ever really made diamond, I could never sleep at night knowing that people's "dreams" are on the line and I was just misleading them. I signed up 8 people as ibo's and all but one are no longer with the Goetchel organization or "TEAM 5000" as they like to call themselves. I felt it my duty to pay them back for enrollment or "the start of their own business" about $120 each. I still can't believe that I ever associated myself with those people. I feel bad for the ones that don't really know what their upline is in it for. They prey on the poor, young, vulnerable, unemployed. It's a sick world and sometimes you lose. That is my $7,000 lesson. I'm very thankful for everything i have learned and would not change anything that has happened because nowadays I go over everything very carefully. I remember going to a summer function at the chuck and colleens home in mission Viejo or somewhere in O.C and some of us were not allowed inside. I felt horrible and realized that; these people are not my friends, I mean what kinda true leader would leave u outdoors like a dog because you didn't sell enough? Anyway that was my breaking point and I was only in the organization about 2 and half months. Today I'm studying biology/nutrition and on my way to chiropractic school. I'm very happy and engaged to a wonderful guy!

Scott right? Are you still doing quixtar? btw my upline was Jr.,then brian and bell/beline, then chris record, Kristi brown and sarah hammond,(lesbians from the desert)charlie & betty goetchel (chucks parents)chuck and colleen, and then the almighty Mr. Williams whose sponser is Dexter and Birdie Yeager. AFTER I "QUIT" THE BUSINESS (SAVED MYSELF) NOT ONE OF THEM CONTINUED OUR "LIFELONG FRIENDSHIP" anyways scott, I would really like to know your story. Hope you are well

-paula

I wanted to commend you on your beautiful website, I think I visited the amquix site also..and saw the list of dirt on the diamonds. You must think that everyone is perfect. Is your world perfect? Have you lost a job once? Have you quit something before? I was proud to see that none of my upline were listed all the way up to Bill Britt..but you know I would not have stopped reaching other people and being their friend and helping them build a business even if they were listed. You actually help me out, because when someone I talk to finds your site and decides not to get started, it saves me time not to work with someone that was wishy washy in the first place.

So keep up the good work. You are doing what you have been called to do in life. You should be proud of yourself. You inspire a lot of people.

Hammond International

One thing I cannot find on www.amquix.info are guidelines and suggestions for how one might go about withdrawing from one's involvement. How does one forgive oneself for such a mistake/encourage one's partner to do so? How does one give up the big dreams and still have the strength to move forward in a day?

Me, my dreams have never really been about things, rather about actions for the every day... I've always had a vaguely zen hippie tendency. It still didn't keep me from being involved for a little while. I dreamed of funding scholarships...

But now that I see better/again the house of cards, there's a great deal of tension between my spouse and I. How can I take my other's dreams away? How can I not? Where do we find the courage?

I'm not asking you, Scott, for those answers. But if you know of such links/sites, I would welcome such an addition to your site.

Thank you.

This is a rather humorous response to the Dateline show. Chuck Goetschel posted this on the "team" web site. Can this many people be this blind to reality? I want to join the PTL club next!

A note to the team from Chuck Goetschel:

Hey Everyone. This is a short response to the brief portion of a Dateline episode that aired recently regarding our business powered by Quixtar. As we know, negative news sells much better than positive news, so it was no surprise that their report was biased and negative. Considering Dateline's reputation of unethical reporting such as when they set off detonators under GM trucks to spark a fire and mislead viewers to believe that there is a safety issue with side-collisions, I don't consider the source as one with much credibility. I found it interesting that also airing the same night was a show attempting to disprove the validity of the Bible (as shared by Mark Gorman, Spring Training speaker), while the news focused on the abuse of Iraqi soldiers in prison. My point is that if we take the spin of most media reports at face value, in one night I could have concluded that: people in business are bad and unethical, the Bible is a farce; and the US military is a mess and, consequently, I should seriously consider my patriotism. However, the truth of the matter is that Dateline, after a year of "investigative research," based their comments on three disgruntled IBOs out of over 700,000 in North America. The show claiming to disprove the validity of the Bible was actually a couple of magicians showing how they can perform illusions relating to the Bible such as appearing to turn water into wine. And, finally, the news focus on the few US soldiers that have done wrong apparently missed focusing on the thousands of brave men and women who have served their country with dignity, integrity, and pride. It has been said that the only way for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. I encourage you to decide to be a positive force in this world. Now is the time to stand up for what you believe, to stand up for your family, and to stand up for your future!

With love and respect - Chuck

Thank you so much for your valuable information on Quixtar. I too almost fell for this marketing scheme! Fortunately I attended a Tuesday night meeting and it started raising questions in my mind. Like, "why do I need to pay $5 a week to come and hear the same sales pitch I've already been told?" Furthermore, "Why do I need to pay money for tapes and cd's that are telling me the same line over and over?" The biggest part of this entire scheme that upsets me is on their cd's they say "this is not Amway," but it is! That is extremely misleading.

Thank you again!

Kelly

I just reread the rest of the Kosage stuff. Messy stuff, yes? All of that happened before I was in WWDB. My first time in Amway I was in Jack Daughery's group from 1995 (two weeks before the split) through 1998. I then signed up in WWBD mid 1999. Weird stuff in ILD too, by the way. That was a fairly dysfunctional group Jack ran.

I have heard substantially conflicting stories about Dean's marriage and divorce from WWDB stages. Even David Shores eluded to Dean's high character throughout that matter. They made it sound like Dean just came home one day from showing the plan and Rebecca had changed the locks without warning. Even my former roommate, sponsored by Dan Kosage, eluded to things not being what they seemed. He wouldn't go into it further though.

While we were sharing a house, he constantly talked of spending time at Dean's new house doing chores for him and such. I don't think much of it till reading of some of these abuses. This reminds me of a 1980's movement in the church called "Shepherding." What was intended as a mentoring and serving thing became an abusive situation very quickly. People would say, "God told me to instruct you to mow my lawn (or wash my car or ...)." You get the picture. I don't know what if anything has changed with Dean.

I am glad to be of help, Scott. I hope the Lacson information gives you the WWDB connection for which you were looking. That is a direct link if I ever saw one, knowing of Al Lacson even from the distance. Once again, so many use Christianity and the Church as a prop. Al was an active part of Antioch Church in Kirkland, a church of several thousand. It seemed to me that these guys were involved in the large Seattle area churches primarily for the prospecting opportunities. I recall a comment from a higher pin something to the effect of we should leave a church if they weren't supportive of the business.

Look for the Shores foreclosure info soon. I will save it as a .pdf file and forward it on as soon as I get it.

By the way, feel free to use what I say. I am glad to offer what insight and information I have. However, please do not use or publish my name or e-mail address. Many thanks.

What happened to Jack Doughery (I think his wife's name was Rita?)? I know he had a fuss with Bill Britt and Ron Puryear about 4-5 years ago. All of a sudden they quit distributing his tapes and basically said that he tried to start his own system. Therefore, he lost like 10,000 distributors overnight..........of course! Ha! Just curious. I was a Q12 on the Markiewicz team for almost 5 years. Moved on with life about 4 years ago!

Thanks! blessings

Corey

Scott,

Great job on putting together the business analysis page - I am a regular visitor. I am anxiously awaiting the release of the 2003 Q-12 winners to verify that my former uplines (out of qualification platinums) once again will not qualify despite being "core" for 7+ years. An interesting fact, their upline "Ruby" was out of qualification the entire 2 years we were in the business, and missed 7500 PV for several months. Our Ruby's upline was an out-of-qualification Diamond by the name of John Felix. On several occasions my upline platinum confided to me that John had fallen out of qualification and was now an emerald.

My wife and I were "core" for 1 year before we came to our senses and quit the business. We were part of an organization downline from Paul Miller.

There was always tremdous pressure to spend more and more of our hard-earned money on tapes, CDs, and functions. I was once told that the reason we could not hit 7500 PV was because, basically, we did not go to church.

Towards the end of our stay in the business, Paul Miller announced that the price of tapes was being raised from $6.00 each (an outrageous price) to $7.50 each (a true ripoff.) If only the higher level pins would stop being so greedy and sell the tapes through Quixtar - everyone would be able to make money from the tapes including the high pins.

Once we quit, my wife and I focussed our energy on building residual income through investments, real estate, etc. Within one year we were making more residual income than we ever would have as eagles 12 wide running 4000PV with decent structure. And that's money that we put into the bank, not into endless tapes that cost $7.50 each.

So those that are afraid to quit because their uplines have brainwashed them into thinking that Quixtar is the only source of residual income - there are other ways!

Thanks for listening.

Dear Scott

Great site!!! I've been on line reading for several hours now....and we have been out of the business for 10 years. Amazing the info is still so interesting. Anyway, we were extremely active for 7 years starting in 1987. We were in Jim and Judy Head's group WWDB.

Anyway......I have a great memory and could probably remember anything you had questions about. I have no tapes or anything physical to share with you...all gone by now. I will tell you a funny story real quick. Our kids were 7 and 5 when we got out of the business. So as you can add, our daughter was a baby and our son born while we were in the business. I actually listened to a Jeff Moore and Dave Severn tape during labor....sooo pitiful!!!! Anyway, when our son was about 6 he and some little friends were in the car and they were talking about things that made them sick to their stomachs. One little friend said one thing or another and then my son said "you know what makes Mommy sick is amway" and the little friends said "what's amway????" and our son said, "I'm really not sure, but every time we watch family videos she and Daddy are always talking about amway and Mommy holds her stomach and says she's going to throw up!!!!"

PS you can print my note, but obviously don't print my name or e-mail....thanks

I am concerned for the wellbeing of a friend of mine who is beginning a career on Quixtar. I have recently attended a recruitment meeting in which I was led to believe that Quixtar was based primarily on sales within the organization. After doing some research I have established that it would not be in my best interest (and certainly not the interests of those I would have recruited.) to pursue this. Unlike myself, however, my friends present at the meeting took the bait.

I have found your site to be very helpful in my search for information. I believe it would help my argument significantly if I had some information regarding your credentials and who runs your site. I would also like to know specifically why you have chosen quixtar/amway as a target for scrutiny. What other MLM have you had a hand in debunking? I would also be interested to know how I could be of help in ending these fraudulent practices even though I haven't signed up myself. to whom should I complain? (e.g. ftc, better business, anyone else?)

Thanks for your help,

Doug

Scott,

An interesting link to the Znetix scam you mentioned. I spotted two names on this page I recognized, Al (Alfonso) Lacson Jr. and Alex Lacson. They are brothers and I remember them being part of Brad Wolgamott's organization. Interesting...

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/waw/press_room/2003/jul/znetix.htm

Mike

RE: Quixtar

By far, the system is the thing...plus they don't tell you that you have to sell about 50% worth of stuff to client, or "outside the system" folks. I just had a meeting on Friday with a senior guy and he plain told me to use my own company to do my client purchases. So, he advocated, buying from myself as a client -- that's illegal based on what I saw on your site. I set it up Saturday but never bought anything as a client.

But again, the system is definitely the thing. Every time I asked a question of my upline all I got was a tape number...every -- single -- time.

thanks.

pat

Hey, just found this sight and OH how ENLIGHTENING. You have given me plenty of ammo to take to the next meeting. Thank You.

Ron

Hey Scott,

I'm writing from Hilo, Hawaii. Yup, home of Mr. Kiyosaki. Anyway, I saw the show and the exact same thing happened. A friend of my dads called (my dad wasn't to happy) and told me he was starting an internet company and was looking for 12 people that he can trust and can earn a six figure income. I was busting up when I saw that and told my wife, thats exactly what the guy here told me. My question is about the products that IBO's have in storage. I've noticed that whenever they split from their higher ups, they start building a closet full of products to try. Now is this legal? I was just curious, because isn't this exactly Equinox did? Maybe I'm confused. Oh, and when I asked about making money on tapes and seminars....the upper pins only make a little. Thanks for a great website.

Craig

My wife joined the Quixtar in September 2003. She is a registered nurse in a hospital and so she could only work this business on a limited basis. I was driving a truck at the time and was Over the Road for 7 weeks at a time. Then I came home for 7 days in which I worked around the house before going back on the road again.

The group built a downline for my wife and helped her get started in the business. We purchase our products each month from "ourselves" via the Quixtar web site. In the beginning her checks were about $9/$12 but they have increased to about $300.00 per month.

I have quit driving over the road. It is not a good paying occupation. You make about $14.00 per hour before taxes and it costs you about $15.00 per day to live frugally on the road if you sleep in your tractor.

I am now bringing new people into the program. I explain to them that the program only works if everyone

purchases what they can from the stores they choose via the Quixtar website. I further press home the idea that purchasing 150 PV each month is easy if they get on the Ditto program and purchase their monthly household cleaners, toilet paper and health needs. In addition they should think of buying their flowers, Christmas presents, Mother's Day Gifts, etc via the website. If everyone would do this then the program succeeds with a minimum effort on recruiting new people because it stands to reason you make as much rebate income from 10 active members as you do from 30 members, of which only 10 are active.

As for the tapes and books I feel that I am paying for the information they contain. I have picked up a host of information that I can use while showing the plan to prospective members. If there is something wrong in this then I fail to see it. As long as I am honest and up front with people about the need to recruit others to make the plan work to its fullest then I do not see where there is any deceit involved. If the prospect does not feel that they do not want to recruit then I try to get them to come aboard as a client member; i.e., they purchase products for themselves but don't talk to others about the plan.

I read a lot of articles wherein people feel they are being cheated. In every case that I have read there is an element of sour grapes. They felt they were going to be compensated and even become financially independent with a membership that required little or no effort on their part. They make statements about what people told them which I find hard to believe. This is not a pie in the sky business, but rather one that requires bread on earth. Like any endeavor it requires hard work, homework and short term sacrifice for a long term reward. I don't know of any honest business that requires less. (If I had a way of finding out, I would bet that the people who complain that they have been defrauded are people who expend large sums of money each week purchasing lottery tickets and yet complain about the cost of tapes, CD's and books that will give them knowledge to improve their lot, while the lottery tickets are give them nothing and are just a politician's plot to raise taxes without having to take the guff from the electorate for doing so.)

As far as pricing is concerned, I find that some items seem over priced, but the bulk of the items that I have purchased are reasonably competitive with prices in major stores and the fact that I save money by not having to spend several hours each week shopping or suffer the wear and tear on my car (including the dents from other people opening their doors into mine) is an additional bonus.

We have been given a plan that will take us to the Platinum Level by the end of the year. It may extend into January because we are getting off to a slow start due to some surgery I have to have, but the plan looks attainable. This would give us about $2500/month. I am retired from the military as well as a major corporation and receive pension checks each month so this would allow my wife to greatly reduce her work load at the hospital. By the end of 2005, God willing we keep our excellent health, we expect to increase our income to $6000.00 per month. These are lofty goals but attainable if we make the sacrifices in time and effort between now and then.

I personally do not know who you are nor am I familiar with your background. However, if you e-mail me with this information I will gladly send you an e-mail each month (beginning 06/30/2004) outlining our progress and feelings about what is happening with our membership.

Sincerely,

WM

Hi WM,

Thanks for taking the time to write. Your idea is a good one. It would help get the truth to light.

My story is not special. I was in Amway in 1993 and found a lot of deceptions. I did not renew. In 1998 I wanted to learn how to make a website, but did not have a topic I felt could help others. I decided to post my price study and called my site the "Amway distributors' little while lie", that was "save 30% by changing your buying habits to Amway". Site visitors kept sending me info and it the topic was to me always interesting, so I kept the site going.

I'll accept your offer if you also include the following information:

The number of people in your downline for the month and the total PV/BV as well as the number of SOT's, and function tickets moved that month. Once you get system money it would be good to detail the percentage from the system and from Quixtar, and don't forget to give us your gross income and then the net income after expenses. You need to show your net profit.

Thank you for the offer and I hope to hear from you at the end of June.

Best Regards,

Scott

I must tell you that I had mixed feelings about the Dateline investigation of QuixscAM. Parts of it were very accurate and not at all good for the said predators. They caught the essence of the cultist nature of the enterprise and made a strong case about the fraud, deception and "secret" tools business. However, Eric's hours of interviews were whittled down to a couple of minutes when he was the one who had the most directly incriminating documentation and he was the one who hounded Dateline for months to get them to do the investigation and he was the one who got the Dateline producers into the open and the rally with their hidden cameras and he was the one who was virtually raped by Scumway when he tried to get some answers. In my view that decision to severely minimize Eric's exposure and input really sucked big time. Also, there was no presentation of any portions of the Directly Speaking tapes or the Postma documents. No mention of was made as to how high level distributors like Eric Scheibeler and Bo Short became aware of "the scam" - that a number of high level IBO's were enlightened in the mid to late '90's through the efforts of particular websites that were produced by a handful of people who were disgusted enough by the deception and harm to stand up and start saying the emperor has no clothes. Eric mentioned this over and over during his interview and Dateline chose not to include any reference of the role the anti-AMQuix sites played in the process of opening the eyes of some high level distributors.

There is no question that the show was a big negative for the Rich Devious, Jay Panhandle, Drill Bit, Darth Yager, Quixsand, Flim-Flayway and so on. I'm sure they're all in full damage control mode at this very moment and will be that way for quite some time. But, in my view, it wasn't the "dagger in the heart" it could have been. They'll eventually weasel their way out of this conundrum. By regurgitating for the zillionth time their standard responses: "participation in the motivational organizations is voluntary", for example and so on and so forth ad nauseum infinitum.

Dateline produces dagger-in-the-heart investigations when its producers feel a colossal exploitation is going on. They did an 2 hour show a while ago entirely on the child prostitution business in Cambodia. This was done because of Datelines's awareness of the pervasive harm being done to children in another country through a sleazy enterprise supported primarly by pedophiles from our country. And Kudos to Dateline for exposing that. What Dateline exposed was totally sickening and that investigation lead to many criminal charges and a move to shut down the operation. The AmQuix scam is no less harmful, exploitive or pervasive and, as we both know, should involve widespread criminal charges and should be shut down.

I did not catch the entire Dateline show but I hear they did a great job

twisting, distorting, finding one distributor with not much gray matter between the ears. Apparently they also found a "Judas" type "ex-leader" that sometime in the last ten years or so, had his 15 minutes worth of fame. So, I went to the site and downloaded the "transcript"... sat down and read it.... and realized that almost every issue is distorted. The cost of involvement, the cost of seminars, the cost of a convention, the monthly cost of purchasing enough tools to keep you motivated. I mean, I thought to myself.... "Did they tell the truth about anything here" ?? Nope, they sure did not... why not I thought... well, because "positive does NOT sell". Only "negative sells" and selling negative is what they do best.

Do you know that in the 22 years I have been involved with this business I have NEVER, not once... ever seen a distributor, at a meeting, smoking a cigarette. "Wanted in North Carolina"... what in the world ??? I mean... talk about "looking" for the "perfect specimen" to help them "sell the negative". WOW....

Oh, it was perfect.... the candles, the convict, the Judas... I mean.... Fabulous, fabulous job in "attacking a great company". Hey, I might even "contribute" another article to your MLMSurvivor website. I hear they "showed one of my tapes" OR did they "make it up". Hey, you never know.... If they can find a "fugitive from North Carolina" and a Judas to contribute to their program, they can DO ANYTHING.

Take care Scott... I hope you are doing well.

Louie C.

Hi,

Found your website after some searching for info on Quixtar. I recently registered with them and am starting to become REALLY not happy I did. I'm not in agreement with the right-wing politics of the huge majority of participants in this "opportunity" (as I found while attending a seminar), and the more I look, the more problems I find in the business (as well as negative press).

The question is: can you advise me on how to get my money back? I invested close to $100 only a week ago to get started (the standard start-up cost). I want to get some info before I contact the man who signed me into this deal so I know where I stand. Thanks for any help on the subject. The materials I have should be in resaleable condition but for the vitamins I opened.

----Ryan

Hey Scott,

Cool site, but I couldn't find that chart that shows the direct correlation between how much time an embittered, slanderous, self- righteous, egotistical geek spends a week tending his website and the number of women who have laughed at the sight of his genitals. That was another one that struck me as common sense. It's amazing isn't it. Keep up the hard work and lonely hours. You will be victorious!

James Panco jrpanco@sbcglobal.net

Dear Scott,

I've been had like so many other distributors. In 1981, this mildly traumatically brain injured Vietnam veteran, courtesy of the VA hospital in Seattle, WA, saw the Plan and was taken in. I became enamored of the nonexistent help that was promised to me. I was in desperate need of help. However, I needed constructive help and certainly not the destructive help that I was given by Amway. I guess the reason that I like their products is because, and only because, they don't use animals for testing purposes. The other reason that I was a distributor was because they make such economical products. Nutrilite, a subsidiary of Amway, makes the finest supplements in the world. There's the kicker. I developed a keen interest in nutrition after becoming an Amway distributor and attended 4 nutrition seminars given under the auspices of Amway. I maintain that Double X has NO equals! That puts me into a bind, to put it mildly. I've been brainwashed, make no mistake about it. I don't appreciate it, at all! To be a distributor for almost 23 years and have financial problems is the pits! I detest this position I'm in. I was a hapless victim of a con artist who I trusted. I paid even more than when I trusted medical doctors to do a good job when I was 30 and in the prime of my life. The brain surgery transpired on 15 Feb 72. I got out of Vietnam and the hated army on 29 Jan 66. I became, eventually, a distributor in October of 1981, filled with hopes and dreams of success. However, it turned out that they were preying on my mental condition, and it would never have occurred if the operation was as successful as the medical people said that it would be. I developed grand mal seizures after the brain surgery and since I saw on videotape a person having one of them, it sickened me. All that I know is that I haven't been the same since either Vietnam or 15 Feb 72. At the time, I had a roofing business and was my own boss and didn't take orders from anyone. Since I could be my own boss, again, with an Amway business, I, unfortunately, enlisted or signed up. That was a mistake as it turns out and a "mistake" from which I'm still reeling. I missed that segment on Dateline. Is there some way that I can purchase the segment?

Dick D., a human being, a Vietnam (ugh) vet, an erstwhile Amway distributor, etc., etc.

Scott,

Just wanted to let you know my wife and I watched the dateline special on Amway/Quixtar and after 7 years it appears NOTHING has changed. It really hit close to home as we were in Britt-Miller-Covington line of sponsorship.

Keep up the good work.

Mark

Mr. Larsen

I am fairly new to the business of Quixtar but I do enjoy the tapes for motivation and if nothing else it has helped me have a more positive view of the world and the people in it.

I must say that I am impressed by all of your research and accurate information but I guess I don't understand why you have this website. If you had put as much time into building the business as you have into this site, and explaining why it doesn't work, you probably would have been successful at it.

Just one persons opinion.

Hello Scott,

I attend WWG's Sacramento functions. Gene & Cheryl Lamazor still attend most functions in Sac and most major functions with WWG. They do not participate in leadership in anyway. They show up when the function starts. I have heard rumors that they are now Sapphires, but have no good info on this. It is also assumed that he is still a practicing doctor, again no facts. Everyone who knows them personally loves them. However, most newer (read, in the business in Sac in the last 10 years) IBO's really don't know who they are.

Please don't use my name/email for my husband's sake. Thank you.

Thank you for the dateline information. I would have missed it. I left quixtar 3 years ago (after being involved for 2 years) with the same suspcions..It was a very good show. A fair representation. I applaud them for researching it for a year!

The only positive thing about Quixtar was their self improvement aspect. One can apply those learned skills to any arena and probably be very successful. There business model made so much sense. Too bad it isn't a reality.( I did meet some fabulous people).

Thanks Scott for hanging in there and updating us with the latest quixtar/amway news. I thank god I didn't stay involved any longer than I had, and that I had caller-id. I was called constantly to try to have my decision reversed once I resigned. When I quit I felt as if I had to be deprogrammed.

Jane

Hi Scott,

Here's a little retro-80s information that might prove useful to you. I've been meaning to send you my Amway story for over a month now, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe a series of shorter e-mails will work better.

I got into the business as a college student in 1981. I was part of Keith and Jimmie Lee Belknap's Champions Organization. The Belknap's rise is chronicled in Paul Conn's book "An Uncommon Freedom" originally published in 1982. Within the organization, I remember hearing that the Belknaps went from zero to double diamond in 22 months breaking every speed record up to that time. Their fall is partially - though not completely - documented in the Setzer v. Amway lawsuit. In fact, I have a hunch that the biggest story in Setzer v. Amway isn't either of the litigants but Champions itself.

Immediately downline from the Belknaps were diamonds Don and Patty McWilliams of Visalia, CA. Using Bo Short's definition, the McWilliams would probably be mid-level diamonds. In the Spring of 1983, the McWilliams broke away from Champions and formed their own organization called Venture Associates. They had one downline diamond, four emeralds, numerous pearls (the sapphire pin didn't exist then) and perhaps 200 directs. My guess is that they were 20% of the Belknap group. I was twelve deep in the McWilliams downline. A third diamond couple, Brian and Judy McConnell, also broke away from the Belknaps and formed their own organization.

My stint in Amway lasted three and half years and falls neatly into two periods - The Champions period and the Venture Associates period. I sponsored four of the first fourteen people I showed the plan to. None of them did anything with the business although one did make a moderate effort and actually renewed his distributorship for a year. I then went through 39 straight "no"s before I got to my next "yes". That couple showed early promise but didn't do anything either. In all, I think that either my upline or I showed the plan to 85-90 people. I don't know how many people I contacted about the business.

The reason I have a newfound interest 20 years later is that with the Internet I might be able to find answers to some unanswered questions. I'd like to know what happened to the Belknaps. There's almost nothing on the "web" and the silence is deafening. In fact, this could be the granddaddy of all your "who stole the cheese" stories. I'd also like to know how the McWilliams' and some of the other big pins are doing. The McWilliams were reform minded and this was a significant reason for the split. I found a brief reference to the McConnell's on the Sidney Shwartz site. A distributor wrote a message in defense of the business in the mid-90s and mentioned them as his diamonds. I found it by doing a Google search on (Brian McConnell) AND (Amway). If any of this information proves useful, I'll be more than happy to write more. Have a good one.

Scott

Please pray for me that I don't lose my mind trying to free myself from this leach of a scam. I told my immediate up-line yesterday that I want to leave this business and immediately stop the "SYSTEM". His response was that if I wanted out why did I join anyway, I can't allow other people and the bathroom wall internet to pull me away from my dreams. I responded that I believe that leaving Quixtar. was the best decision for me. He gave me the weeks "SYSTEM" anyway and suggested that I listen to the tapes because it might help me get refocused (the guy on the tape has the same personality that I do). I'm soo upset about this and I'm trying to prepare myself to meet with him again on Monday, I pray that I don't allow my temper to surface, that I stay professional so as not to give anyone a reason to hinder my detachment and refund. I have also gathered the stuff to return to quixtar, but I'M not sure what to do because these items were bought with my money but they where purchased with an uplines credit card (if this doesn't make sense I can try to explain further.

I just saw the dateline story on Quixtar and my mouth dropped. I was a former IBO myself about 1 1/2 years ago. I watched the complete story and actually called Quixtar to see what their response would be. The directed me to: quixtarresponse.com I'm sure you already know this. Like many former IBO's I have two boxes full of tapes and literature: starter packs etc. After reading their response I had to laugh. I never knew that my upline was profoting from tapes and books. I just assumed the money I was paying for the books and tapes were only covering the cost of making them. After watching the special, I was proven wrong. They are right when the say it is optional to buy tapes and other products. But what they fail to say is that if you don't buy the tapes and starter kits and other material that it is shunned upon. They just make it sound hand in hand, You're an IBO you buy tons of tapes and books. When I first registered it was put to me like this" you don't have to buy th material but those that are successful do" Obviously you want to be successful, so you buy the tapes. It was funny to hear the stats" 99.1% don't make it. I once again had to laugh when I heard the chant: freedom, flush that stinking job. I've seen bill britt in person and Joe Markowitz and all thos other top guys. It was just amazing to see that story. I just wanted to add my two sense. I'm sure you will be receiving tons of e-mails after the show, but if you would happen to get the chance to respond, it would be apreciated. If not best wishes.

Michael

You know reading all of this information that you have here is amazing. I feel like we are living the past three years over again. And that's something I don't want to do.

We were so hyped on this business and we took out loans, went to all meetings, all seminars, and alas lost alot of friends. We spent so much money that we were in jeopardy of losing our home. No one ever told us that it was the BSM's that would give us the diamond lifestyle. We were actually told that if we bought products and buried them in our backyard we would make money. And we believed them.

I can attest that the tapes and books are mind numbing. We were totally different people and wanted more tapes. Couldn't go anywhere without them. Thank god my girlfriend finally woke up and put me on the right track. She dove into all the information that she could collect from the uplines and other organizations. What she found shocked me. 3/4 of the diamond lifestyle was from BSM's and not the product lines.

Our friends who got us into this business are no longer our friends. All the people that we made contact with through the business no longer speak to us as we are no longer part of the Quixtar. I feel sorry for all those who still are in it. I will give you an example: We had a friend that was so into this that she cashed out all of her CD's just to keep going with the business. It amazes me that people are still so head strong with this. And still not making the money promised.

I just want to stay Listen, Look, Read, and ask alot of questions before you venture into this cult.

Norbert

Hello, I am the mother in law of a young woman who is really wrapped up in the Quixtar thing. I did not think much of it, until I watched the Dateline segment this evening about the company and how it basically brainwashes it's followers into thinking they can have a better life. My son goes along with it, but is not 'into' it like his wife. Oh, by the way, they are both Marines, and when my son was in Kuwait last year, I think his wife stuck a lot of money into the company without his knowledge. Now, I am worried that if I say anything it will cause problems between the two of them, but I really hate to see them wasting their time and being scammed. Is it possible to be an 'owner' and not be taken for all you've got? Also, I am really concerned about the cultish-ness of the whole thing. They live in San Diego and we are in Minnesota, so it is hard to really know how deep they are into this 'business'. ?? What do you think? Laura, worried parent

My ex-husband and his family are involved with Quixtar (Amway) and have been for approx. 8 years. I have been to some of the meetings (when we were still married) and think of Amway as a cult, without question.

There are only two reasons I care about the fact that my ex-husband is still involved: 1. my ten year old son makes comments like: "I won't have to go to college because I'll just own a business like my Dad's" and "I've changed my mind about owning a yacht when I grow up - I think I'd rather own a private jet" and 2. My ex-father-in-law is a physician with a thriving practice. He sends his patients to my ex-husband's wife (his "downline") to buy the Amway vitamins. The recording on their machine does not state their last name because it would be the same as the Dr.'s and his patients might catch on....I think this is unethical and if I knew that it was officially illegal, I would turn him in. Maybe it is?

I hate, hate, hate this Amway crap. My ex-husband spends all of this free time "working" (one time he actually skipped one of our son's football games because he was "dreambuilding" at a boat store), they are constantly trying to get me to buy their products (from phone service to photography to Amway's version of Gatoraid - the latest product they're pushing on everyone is a line of energy drinks). Meanwhile, they've been in the business for a long time and he can't even afford to keep his cell phone turned on. I know there are a lot of lawsuits and I don't understand how people can still be so snowed by this organization. I don't feel sorry for people who involve themselves in this stuff - if I was smart enough to run away, they should be too. I would like to see a ton of press on this scam - maybe that would at least reduce business for a while and my ex would finally give it up.

 

Scott -

My brother is totally involved with this new business which is driven by Quixstar. Currently a junior in college, there's one thing that I've learned which is research. Especially with my financial situation now, I took an in-depth look at this business my brother was involved with. Is there anyway that I could possibly call you and ask some basic questions? I've read a lot of material on your website but am still on the fence questioning the validity... please help?

Best Regards,

HS

I became an IBO of Quixtar in August of 2003. I was rushed with info on how to shop for myself from myself and get rich doing so and learn from my mentor how to teach all my friends and family to do the same.. I happily signed up, why, with being a single mom, this sounded like just the thing I had prayed for. Well after I attended my second meeting and heard all the same info I needed some answers to some burning questions. They discourage asking anything during the meetings and if your lucky enough to get a question in, no one knows the answer. After months of shopping for stuff I never really liked ( crappy over priced ) I finnaly learned that I would not succeed if I was not on system. WHAT???? But I already payed to sign up...... Why did'nt I hear of this in the plan.....I could never choose books and tapes and seminars over feeding my kids..... There was no way I could do this.... No one talked to me any more.... or if they did they would just say that when I could afford to I ought to get on system..... " You have your spot" they'd say and " just keep going to meetings and bring as many people as you can " I got my dad and stepmom in and a long time friend.....well months later my dad and stepmom are so brainwashed by Quixtar that they accually think that all monies made from "system" is going towards the purchase of an island and yacht and private plane for all jeweled and crowned or whatevers to share and enjoy for free They don't call or see the grandkids any more because they are so wrapped up in "The stinkin Business " the person who signed me up did some investigating and he ended up asking for and getting some of his money back. He then sent letters to all those he introduced to the business and when THEY ( meaning the high ups ) found out they started calling him nuts and even went as far as to say that he was emailing pornography. All to defame his character and stop any of their brainwashed drones from catching on to the scam....... Well I see Quixtar clear as day now..............I want out...........I want my money back too. I have been lied to and have had my folks stolen from me and my kids....I want my dad to wake up before its to late..Help

Hi, My upline is George Eldrege, then Shankar Byati, then Muerli, then Nanda Sringari.(From the line of Gala- Battacharyi) 2 days ago, I was called by all of the above and told to stop talking or hanging out with my "cross-line/ best friend" unless I have counseled upline prior to any conversation or I would not be allowed to "associate". I agreed just to buy myself time to think. I have only been in the business 4 months, but already have a growing team doing 1000PV a month. I called all of my downline and some crossline, telling them I would be quitting the business and why. Yesterday, I received another call from all of the above. Telling me if I kept calling people, "there would be consequences to pay". After I told them I wasn't scared or intimidated. They said I was destroying there businesses and "things could happen" I ended the call by hanging up on them. Most of my downline is family, so they are quitting. Although my direct upline George Eldredge is meeting with them on Saturday to cast doubt in their minds about my mental stability. I have urged them all to look at your website, especially about "organized crime" I thank God that He has opened my eyes. I watch my back (single mom with 2 kids) everyone thinks I am exaggerating about the "threats". Please pray for me. My best friend ended our friendship yesterday at their urging. And, I go to church with most of these people. I am meeting with one of the pastors next week to let them know how my upline (who also is a part time youth pastor there) is recruiting the 17yr olds about to turn 18 to attend open meetings.

What a nightmare. The worst part is that I am a new Christian and that's how I got sucked in to this. Now I have to figure out what God and Christianity is really all about.

Scott,

Dave and Lorna Taylor were my upline diamonds. I left the biz in 1995 after some unbelievable statements that issued from their Summer Conference stage, to include Dave concluding the traditional Sunday morning altar call with the admonition to not "be so heavenly minded you're no earthly good" (translation: Don't let your new life in Christ get in the way of doing whatever it takes to go diamond). Dave, like every Britt diamond, was considered the "spiritual leader" and marriage-counselor-in-chief for his organization.

Do you have any details on their marital split, e.g. year it happened, current relational and business status, etc? I bump into my former sponsors occasionally, and have not heard a word out of them on the subject.

Thanks,

Jim

Scott,

Thanks for the update on Quixtar; they are very active here in West Michigan, moving over the the east side of the state where they started.

I don't know if I previously told you my LOS is "ProAlliance" which I believe is a successor to "Pronet."

They, too, are aggressively pushing the "Tools" portion of the business. To imply that I will not succeed in this business w/o the tools is an insult to my intelligence Sometimes I think ALL the LOS's lose site of the fact that without Quixtar there would be no LOS to pitch their products to. The sad thing is I believe the Quixtar site offers a wide array of products and I'm particularly impressed with the Partner Stores (knowing that is the least profitable to us IBO's).

Did I see recently that Quixtar sales for the year-ended August 31, 2003 were $1.035 Billion and partner stores accounted for just about 3-4% of sales ???

I often think about just seeking "members" and forgetting the MLM aspect of the business.

Keep up the good work and presenting the "other side of the story."

Phil

Dude I make over 7000$ a month as a Ruby everyone in my downline gotta be buying tools or else I wont work with them because they gotta have knowledge about this business. It works for me an it works for all my downlines that want it to work. Now I gotta know was you in this business before??
thats all.

How much is your group spending on tools?

I dont know yet im guessing in my group about 2500 a month. Scott your pretty good I wanna see that thing on the date line im going to check it out thanks man.

Daren

Scott, I would like to first congratulate you on at least having one area where positive comments can be aired about the Quixtar business. I would also like to take a moment to tell those who disagree with you to keep their profanity to themselves. While I disagree with many things on your website I understand you have every right to put whatever you want on your own website. To those who spout their filthy language I can only say you are obviously not plugged into any active upline. No one active in WWDB would use such language. Shame on you, you only support those who wish to criticize this business with your immature rantings.

I am downline from Howie and Theresa Danzik. I can tell you they are two of the most honest, wholesome, visionary, godly and wonderful people I have ever met. Yes, Howie was married before, but what your website does not address is that Susan made her choice. The Bible is very clear on when divorce is acceptable. Howie was justified in his decision to divorce Susan. As for Theresa, she is a blessing to all who know her.

Regarding the business, I do agree with you that an IBO must have some retail business in order to make it work. WWDB from Ron Puryear on down has always taught that. In World Wide we teach a 300 PV personal circle. This includes both personal use and retail. Thus, you will go Platinum with yourself and 24 households in your business doing 300 PV. It's all on the WSA-4400. Me-you-6-3. You show six who each show three all doing 300 PV which equals Silver volume 7500 PV. If you, as a household, don't do 300 PV, get some customers! There's only a million-plus products. Anyone who gets in this business thinking they're just going to sponsor a bunch of people who personally use the products but don't do retail are looking at a long road to Platinum and Ruby. Go to the numbers from Alitcor, World Wide Dream Builders has a higher PV per IBO than any organization in Quixtar. We do not shy away from Retail but we also do not concentrate on retail alone. We show the big business and then meet people at their needs. "You want the big business? Great! Here's what I would do if I were you...CORE." "You want to just buy wholesale? Great!" No need to be CORE, just buy when you want. "You want to be a customer? Great! Would you like to buy your products on-line or would you rather order directly from me and have me deliver?" No pressure. No forcing people to do anything they do not want to do. I can go Ruby with no big business builders whatsoever! It's a volume pin and that means customers and Pro-Sumers.

Finally, regarding these people who blame "the business" for the disintegration of their marriage. Get real! You got in the business and had to really talk to your spouse for the first time. I can tell you from personal experience that this business has made me a better husband, father, Christian and employee. Success principles are success principles. They work anywhere. I've been more successful in my job due to much of what I've learned from WWDB, Howie Danzik, the books on the book list, and yes, standing order tape. This business is what you make it...period. Anyone who whines about what the business did or didn't do is a baby. IBO stands for Independent Business Owner, so act like one. No one's going to make you successful but where else can you get mentorship from multi-millionaires for free? Okay, you have to get a voice-messaging system for $30.00 a month. Big deal. If Warren Buffet said you could ask him as many questions as you wanted about investing via a voice messaging system and he would answer you back within 12 to 24 hours with personal advice would you pay for the system? DUH! This is no different than that. I can personally plug into Howie Danzik, Terry Felber and Theron Nelsen. Men who have been in this business for ten, 24 and 30 years! I cherish this mentorship. Howie Danzik has never forced or coerced me to do anything. Anyone who has ever seen him in person would understand that. You look for lookers and serve people regardless of if they want to build the business right now or not.

Look at the charitable organizations WWDB supports: Goad International, Gospel Films, Easter Seals. Do you have any idea what many of these Diamonds and above are doing with their time and money? Serving at-risk youth, battling child prostitution in 3rd world countries, etc., etc., etc. Terry Felber sponsors church trips to Mongolia to deliver bibles for God's sake!

You point out some people who have been in the business and are now divorced. Welcome to planet earth! No one is perfect. I do know that people like Frank Radford, Jim Brooks and Howie Danzik are still on the WWDB speaking circuit. This would not happen if they did not have their house in order, that is a fact.

So congratulations Scott, you've got a website that throws some mud at a business that offers opportunity to whomever wants to take it. You must be so proud! Now why don't you do a website on the percentage of divorces in the medical industry...banking industry...lawyers...teachers...clergy. You know what? You'll find a greater percentage in those and any other industry than the active IBO's in World Wide Dream Builders.

Sincerely,

A WWDB IBO

Last update 06/4/2004Hello Scott, I was approached by two of my friends promoting the "Quixtar" pitch! One started in Jan 04, the other, April 7,2004. They are both around 30ish (i'm 10 yrs older) and their idea with the concept is to have this program take the place of their current jobs. Keep in mind that we live in a town of about 1740 population! They say that if a person is to buy into the team and became a loyal product purchaser, and get others to do the same, one could earn 2 to 3 thou. a month. My wife and I do better than this now! And are both happy! My two friends on the other hand, sat there and had nothing good to say about their jobs... So now they believe that this is the way out! I see it differently. If a person has enough energy and drive to go after the Quixtar gamble (as I see it) Then they should also be capable of using this same energy to adjust their current position in life. If you don't like your job, do something about it! Instead someone comes along and brainwashes them to believe that this is how you fix things in your life. (while they get rich off of you) Who's the smart one? Their comment about Quixtar was: "This is really taking off around here"... In a town of 1740? What am I missing!!!

Is Quixtar going after the less knowledgeable people? Even if this does take off in our community, I don't what to give anyone the opportunity to say: You're one of those $#@*ers that encouraged people to buy their products somewhere else! We are already a bedroom community as it is. My wife and I do not currently add to this problem. We help support our community. Maybe I'm just getting old! Also I'd like to add that when my friends walked in to my house, I didn't recognize them. To me, they have become someone other then their true self. I happened to here one of Quixtar"s audio clips with the man thanking God that he could be there with the crowd! Am I wrong to assume there may be some religious belief within this group? Not sure if you can answer that one. Did I mention brainwashed! Sorry, I couldn't resist. I could go on and on.... I'll stop with that. They will be back on Sun. afternoon for a follow-up meeting. Is there any particular questions I should ask them before I say I'm not interested? I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this and for any information you pass on to me.

Have a great day. Ray