Last update 010/05/2003

Sincerely,

I know some people who recently joined Quixtar, and contend they are not a pyramid system, is there anything you can show me/link me to prove otherwise? Their contention is that people below you can make more money than you, therefore it is not a pyramid scheme. Based on the "system" this seems true, am I missing something in the formula?

Chris

Scott,

I made decent money and PV doing that, but there was effort I had to put forward to get and service customers. Once you figure the time involved to get a customer, the rate wasn't as good as I expected. I decided I needed to know if the rewards of the effort associated with retail and sponsoring would be worth it. I read some of the testimonials on your website (getting the other side of the story that you don't see in Achieve magazine) of people who achieved the levels I wanted to get to (Silver, Platinum, Sapphire, Emerald, etc.) and decided this really wasn't worth it.

On the whole, I guess I left because I saw it as a business decision. The facts were this: 1) it was very difficult to be profitable and the hourly rate wasn't what I wanted, 2) most people who got in lost money (some lost a lot of money), and 3) I really didn't feel like this was a great opportunity to share with others.

Doug

Subject: I will give you a year to get this website off the net or I will sue you!

I was deceived about the retail rule and received checks for almost a year without ever fulfilling that rule. I was told that was fine, it was all a bunch of "legalese" and that I was fine. That in fact was the straw that broke the camels back for me I was also deceived about what it was I was told QBiz and was taught to tell others the same

I am still an IBO within the WIN group. I don't see them in your information. What can you tell me, if anything. I am trying to discern how to present my case to my friends and up-line and want to be as fair and as careful as I can be as to why I am about to pull out of this business. Fortunately the recent article in the business section of the KC Star (re. the law suits recorded in MO you have also recorded in your most recent addition) alerted me and confirmed for me some ill feelings I have started to have. Your web site has given very credible evidence as to my and wife's negative feelings about the "tools and functions" stuff which seemed much too much both emotionally and financially (given the poor presentations, evangelical nonsense and lack of real content). Fortunately I am not in too deep and have not added on too many folks yet. Where is WIN re. the Yeager genealogy? I can't seem to ascertain that. One of the things you alluded to is what I cannot tell is the growth. I have been at meetings in Wichita, Topeka and Overland Park where anywhere between three dozen to five hundred people show up. At the early summer Topeka meeting, the largest group I've seen, easily half of the attendees were not at 100 PV, which got my attention and through your information indicates this as quite normal. My friend, who attended with us, talked with a guy he knew who had been in the business for at least three years and had not done 100 PV. This got my attention as I began to wonder what other need(s) is fulfilled coming to a meeting supposedly designed to give content (I thought) information as to how to build a business. The speaker was quite inarticulate and gave me (us) little to no useful information. Anyway the explanation that I got from my up-line was that "well, gee, that half were new people" and "this a type meeting to inspire new people" which didn't seem plausible, and after reading most of your web material, is less so now! These functions were all WIN (www.winibo). I will appreciate anything further you can tell me. Thanks again for what is a great service.

Dear Scott,

I was at work today and was approuched by a proffesional looking man. He said I was a sharp person ask for my card and went into his spiel. He gave me his card, his website was www.gboalliance.com. My question, who is the diamond of this organization? He thinks he walked away with a good one NOT!!!!

Hi Scott,

very interesting website you have. I quit Amway as Diamond in 1985 for personal reasons and stopped MLM for 12 years, until I found Tahitian Noni International. Now I am one of the Top Distributors there and very happy to have made that decision 20 years ago.

I joined Amway in 1979 in the Dexter Yager Group. My Upline was Ken & Doris Pitman and today I am most greatful for everything I learned form them, specially from Dexter. I rmember meeting Doug Wead when he was a Diamond himself back in Germany.

There is nobody to blame for my quitting but me, because I did not like the way Amway Germany treated the people. We built our business without any garagesales and have been very successful with our system, when suddenly an other group showed up from Dr. Peter Mueller Meerkatz which started the garagesales and we received a lot of Media attention in the 80's. We complained about it at the company, but they told us that they like the volume and we all should shut up.

So we all quit. A lot of Diamonds, Emeralds and their groups quit. I remember that this must have been late 85 or early 86. You will find that out. The volume dropped dramatically in Europe after this.

Even Ken & Doris Pitman, the crowns at this time in Germany quit and foundet their own Network Marketing company named EURONET. I didn't join. I had enough. and foundet my own company with office suplies and computers. Usual business you know.

After a couple of years my Business-Partner left me with 1.5 Mio german marks while I was on vacation :) So I became interested in Network Marketing again and looked for a company based on what I have learned from Dexter and Ken.

Thanks for your good work.

Have an awesome day,

-Bert Jensen

BTW: I was an European Diamond.

Hi Scott

I tracked down Don Buckingham. I referred him to the site. He is a former Ruby, who spent $180,000.00 of his own money going Ruby! He told me that over the phone. I said he needed to tell you his story. Do you want to talk to him? He got blown out by Chuck Goetschel also.

Don was a HUGE retailer. He built the business the old fashioned way, the way money should be made. He didn't get into the tools and all that nonsense, so Chuck pressured him out of the business.

Hi, Scott!

I was approached today by a young couple trying to recruit me into an e-commerce business, "We Got It Right! TM". Of course it does not say anything about being related to Amway or Quixtar, but the Van Andel / de Vos group are associated. It involves ordering products by an e-reminder. The Van Andel / de Vos group are shown to own 3 major league sports teams, and the company has significant warehousing and distribution systems. Some of the same profile that Quixtar had.

Know anything about them? I assume it is the newest incarnation of Amway/Quixtar.

Thanks for any insight.

Scott,

Thanks for your response!

The promotional CD did not have a website nor a corporate name. The business model was ordering products such as toothpaste, shampoo, soaps, other "standard" products, having them shipped to your home and essentially buying from yourself as the distributor. Then, teaching others to do the same. When I returned the CD and said I was not interested in the business model, that I believed it was tied to Amway and Quixtar, the couple said that yes, they knew that. They were quick to say that Amway no longer functioned as such in the US, etc.

Sorry to not have more specifics, but thought you might like to be alerted. And, by the way, I gave the couple your website when I returned the CD.

By the way, thanks for the information you provide. It's funny, my husband and I 'got in' (another term) in November of 2001. We have had some nice bonus checks, but to be quite honest, they were during contest times. I'll admit, we 'bought' our wins. Not entirely, but we did 'stock up' 1-2 months of personal use to hit the goal required to win the contest during the last few weeks. The biggest bang for the buck, though, has been in income tax breaks by having a home based business. But you can't keep operating at a loss - the IRS looks at it as a 'hobby business'. So I thought once we got it off the ground we would start making more money, but we haven't been too successful. I can't quite say that we've worked our tails off tho, because frankly, my husband and I spend more time together than our Emerald or Diamond uplines spend with their spouses - and I thought that was the idea! And we both work full time. I didn't expect to get rich quick, but I didn't expect t to encounter such a backlash when approaching people either.

Since I was so surprised by Howie's previous marriage, I decided to dig further. That's when I came across all the information about the tools, the hotel takes (that was a surprise), and the disparity in income between the Quixtar aspect and the system income, and what is presented. I have no issue with making a profit on instruction - but the outlined bonus schedule for tools, speaking engagements, etc. should be presented right along with the PFR, describing at what level you get what...just like the volume bonus schedule is. And from what I'm reading, since something in writing does not exist, and it seems one is at the mercy of their upline, that is not likely.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanx. We will probably continue with our personal use and retail end of the business and see what we can do with volume. I can't, in good conscience, however, ask people to plug into the system unless they are upfront about it across the board, in writing. I don't see that happening. I'll probably write you again - and give you some feedback on the Christianity aspect of the business if you're interested. If you post any of this, use first name only please. Thx Scott.

Dear Scott,

Who is accountable for all the information at this website? I find no clear indication on contacting anyone to ask more questions or even challenge the information on this site. It seems that there is a credibility issue with this website. I am sincerely interested in knowing who is responsible for assembling the information found here.

Thank you for your help,

Michael

Hi Scott,

Could you tell me who you are? What's your background? What kind of business are you in? What's the history of your company? I'd just like to know about where all this information comes from and it starts with finding out about the source.

Thank you sir,

Erich

I was an Amway direct under Tom and Patty Armour. Bubba Pratt went nuts on stage one night and we quit going. Then Had Marshall and Diana Douglas to the house for lunch and bought the team in focus story. Went to Convention in Feb in New Orleans and cant be more displeased with the way it has gone from there. I got two friends in and no help from our upline at all.

Finally cancelled my standing vitamin order this month. I'm just got fed up with the whole scam. First order was nine hundred dollars worth of product and never got it all and never resolved it either. Tried to sell them a magnetic jewelry line that we manufacture in Orlando and they would never even respond back to us. Now they are carrying the cheapest crap for magnetic therapy jewelry line and bottom line the product is not strong enough to work and was more expensive then ours. What is up with that? Not only do you put forward a product to supposedly help people you turn down a product from your own down line that has a proven track record. I say to hell with all mlm's

Scott,

Quixtar IBO cell works much like a virus. It goes to differeent environemnt to attack healthy cell. It suck away, all the nutrients inside and try to clone the healthy cell into another virus. If the cloening, process complete, this virus will moved on to do the same copying process. If the clonning process failed, this healthy cell will be dump as garbage.

How does the IBO virus attack healthy cell? Every cell has a dream to grow faster and bigger, that's how the IBO virus tricked the healthy cell to attack. During the sucking process, healthy cell will feel so happy and buying all the expensive products and thinking it's better and cheaper. Once no more nutrients left, healthy cell will turn into a virus too; however, due to critical thinking skill, most of the healthy cell will have immune system to fight the clonning process.

Critical thinking is the killer and healer for Quixtar virus. That's why IBO have to go to meeting 3 ~ 4 times a week to get brain washed.

I think therefore I am. If I stop thinking, I will become an Quixtar Virus.

Dear Scott:

I recently became aware of your site and find it totally awesome. I was in the Carrillo organization for many years. I can tell you that he is a very smart cookie. Don't think for a moment that he is less than this. Remember he was high in the air traffic controllers union back when the strike unemployed them. I respect any person who has arrived to success especially the way Louie worked to Emeralds and Diamond. There are some who got in the business, many already influential and smoked and mirrored their way to diamond but Louie worked hard and did not do it the way that was promoted by them to their downline or how Quxtar is promoting it today. I also have seen Louie figure this business out when he became a Diamond and they know very well how their bread is buttered. They have no care about the new distributor, that is a fact. As a matter of fact in the Amway business the more people that become successful in your group take away a portion of your BSM income as a diamond, emerald or above. Remember the tools is the income not the Amway or Quixtar opportunity. Louie Carrillo has been successful at blowing out anyone in his organization who has gotten close to becoming a Diamond. I have witnessed this. He has had many and they have all left the business. How fortunate for Louie. I got to know a gentleman get in the Amway business that built the business and remained a very protective and honest individual and changed the lives of many. How come is it that the good always die young. This fellow came to the US from Cuba in 1982. He was presented the opportunity in Miami Fl when he worked at Glidden paint. His wife and Luis Costa lived in a run down 800 sq ft apartment and failed miserably in the US. They decided to move to Spain where it was that he defected form a Cuban government plane. In three years he became an Emerald and reached the Diamond level. He never let any of the Diamonds from the US interfere in his organization because he knew what they were after. Its important to say that none of them wanted to help him in Spain when he was nothing but when he was packing in thousands they all wanted to do down their. Interesting enough Luis Costa was always fighting the way it was and trying to make it better for his represented country and the enormous success of his people showed it. He was killed when his private Cessna crashed. This is what is interesting. His wife was swarmed by many diamonds and stingy reps to take his tool money away. In the presentation they always tell people that the 4% as it was back then when others became direct distributors is willable for 3 generations. I have friends that I still get together with many of them had reached a high level in that business as well. We often speak about these offerings. Where are they in writing to begin with and where is the willable tool money income? Well they swarmed in and eventually took much of Luis Costa's organization, even Amway went down their and appointed a self interested Direct distributor not even one of Luis Costa's Diamonds to run the show. Knowing the business well I can tell you that you are right on the money. Louie is just another hard core capitalist interested in only his own capitalism not anyone Else's. No one in that business is going to say that it is not the best opportunity because the Yager system is so brainwashed. I remember when many of us at a high level started seeing that there where better opportunities out there even in the MLM business and how Amway was far from the best anymore, and help people make income and earn much more in a better achievement percentage business. ( Many years of seeing very talented and very hard working people not make incomes in Amway). The first thing I was advised to do by a very large pin was "don't listen to another tape for about a month and then come see me." I was sucking down 5 to 6 tapes a day about that time. This is the norm for an Amway distributor that is running hard. He knew that no matter how good anything was I would not see it unless I disconnected myself from this very untactful system. I listen to those old tapes now and I think put in the right perspective it is a real fantastic education. But I am no longer brainwashed by the one focused Amway mind set. I after taking his advise met him a month later and could reason that we where all destined for less not more. Besides all who are in Louie Carrillos level know that the Amway 7 billion advertised was overseas and that the Amway business here in the US topped out at 2bil and declined ever since that point. The rest was growth in international countries. You see this in the numbers from Quixtar today as you mentioned 28% decrease. Keep up the good Job

Hi Scott:

Good to hear from you. Give me a couple of days to do so. That was many years ago and my brain cells just don't pop up things like it used to. However until I find that mental file, here is a good juicy one for you. Have you ever heard of Carlos Marin? Well now this is one of the king of deception and he is still out their selling and deceiving today in 2003. Carlos Marin and Carmen Marin drifted apart during the mid 90's Carlos had built an organization of 500,000 people all over the world and had 42 go diamond in his organization. He was caught by Carmen being untruthful and she just walked away from him and the whole thing. For sometime at the major functions Carlos would make up stories on her where abouts and that she said hi to everyone. Then eventually it could not be covered over any more. She has become very successful away from Carlos but Carlos got worse and worse from that point. As I had mentioned before the higher level that others reach in your group the more they cut in to a Diamonds income. Well 42diamonds really cut in to his tool and function money. Several of the diamonds that I was very close to in his organization would say man he gives us so small of a share when the function audience are 60% my organization. Carlos held these diamonds together for many years not allowing them to separate and form their own functions so that he could earn the big bucks and pay them a smaller percentage. He had Diamonds breaking all over the place. They idolized him. But at some point they begin to figure him out and arguments and lawyers got involved. They never tell the down line this, on stage they would hug and edify each other while in the real story they where shaking fists at each other and one emerald that I know even went as far as threatening his life. It gets worse. The tool money is the money. Figure a new Diamond has 1000 tape of the week going out to his group every week along with the teaching tape the go getter tape and probably and average 1 to3 other tapes. Figure that earning at 3 dollars profit per distributor. Now imagine Carlos 500,000 distributors. Carlos took the business away from Yager and had the recordings in the Latin countries. At this point many of Carlos diamonds where fighting with him to release themselves from Carlos grasp. It got worse As many of these diamonds said enough and decided to do their own functions it hurt Carlos' income and along with Carmen's divorce found Carlos in a situation. Carlos now begin to go down line from his Diamonds and offer a discounted price to the diamonds down line to their emeralds for the tapes to buy the directly from them by a dollar or two many did and this exploded. Many of them souhgt help from Tim Foley and got him involved to try to help them. Carlos got his attorney to file a suit against Foley now for interfering. It got worse and then eventually Amway called in Carols and offered an out program with a 3 year non compete and gave Carlos 10 million to walk away from his business. Carlos waited the three years and worked on the launch of Empexis where many of us got involved up to the launch. It was a viral promising to be very lucrative. After the launch in 2000 the investor money would go to feed his own lifestyle and we realized right away that the same Carlos was up to no good. He moved his business headquartered in Boca to Mexico because his Mexico people would be easier to indulge. He continues today the smoke and mirrors with that one while at the same time operating a gas card mlm on the outside knowing that the gas card scheme is illegal. What can you say. When leaving the Amway business mlm is still on the minds of many of us who knew that mlm works but that it can be done correctly if as you mention a mlm can be profitable to a distributor if the service or product can create a profit with out the mlm side. it takes many a few years to get this out of our system all together. That is why you see so many open up a mlm company of their own. It takes millions to open a business like that and many will fail and realize that their mlm career is over unless they get involved with another company. I think the difference today and the overwhelming information that is available on any topic to anyone that seeks it on the Internet is the difference and this is why the tool game cannot be hidden anymore. Once upon a time a person that would leave the Amway business did just that and couldn't open the eyes of a massive audience but now its different and they know this. Anyway I hope you enjoy this little tid bit of information and well be in touch.

Please keep my name in your knowledge alone. You never know what a person with millions with lack of integrity will do to protect his dollars.

Thank you for letting me tell my story. Please refrain from printing my name or e-mail address...I still have in-laws who are very much involved with Quixtar.

I could go on. One last thing that broke us completely away was chuck and Colleen’s bizarre behavior regarding her singing "talent". Colleen was put on stage to sing at literally every function we had in every month, including major functions. There’s no better way to say it. . . She absolutely SUCKS! In their minds and the minds of the brain-washed, she’s the next Whitney Huston. She’s horribly off-key and has a terrible time controlling her transitions, pitch and voice control. But since she’s "naturally so good", she could NEVER need voice lessons! So Colleen and Chuck set off the fulfill one of her biggest dreams – to record her own C.D.! Yes, that’s right, it’s called "Colleen G." Original, huh? So this C.D. recording idea was taken to many a recording studio and outright refused as soon as they heard her voice. They were laughed out the door everywhere they went! So they refused to hear "no" and coerced a couple in their down line, Andy and Mary Kate Kirby, to do the recording using their own music and studio connections.

We are no longer active in the amway system - SEPARATION & FREEDOM HAS BEEN ACHIEVED.

The following took place over a ten year period and I have tried to condense it yet communicate the essence of the whole saga.

I hope that this helps someone avoid the pain, personal and financial stress that occurs with Amway and IDA.

FROM AUSTRALIA - We joined back in '93 in the IDA, Yager system and got off to a rapid start - we did all the things suggested

Books, tapes, functions and showed the plan to anything that was breathing . . .

We achieved success to the level of quicksilver, which is 5 personally sponsored and 10 more in depth under those 5.

At this point I would like to say that I was having a successful career as an awarding winning photographer but had seen

the long term potential of some residual income instead of being a decrepit old photographer.

We had just moved into a fairly prestigious house on 1.5 acres and were doing quite well.

What followed in the years to come was a night mare . . .

My boss got wind of the fact that I was involved in Amway and offered me 2 options - accept a demotion or leave. mmm.

Too late now I had the bug bad and believed that I would make more money from Amway anyway so what the hell...
I told him to keep his J.O.B. (Amway talk for Just Over Broke)

Started my own photography business on the advice of upline Emerald, you need to counsel about these things, so we did,

and quickly found out that we actually did not have the operating capital to do so. Anyway this lead to digging into the equity in our house and

the whole time running around showing plans and earning new and higher pins!
To make this story shorter, about 2 years later we ended up in a bad financial position because all our focus was on Amway, not the bank, my photographic career, the kids etc etc etc

So we had to sell our dream home and move back to the burbs, into a house that was 1 bedroom short etc, which we did with the attitude that sometimes you have to take a step back to take a step forward ( more cliches from our upline leaders, fountains of knowledge and success that they are .. . )

The whole time continuing to build the business because it was "the answer, grasshopper,,,,,,"

Anyway, while living in this house we got excited and put a contract on a block of land and again to cut a long story short, this ended in disaster as we were unable to finance it and the land developer ended up suing us for breach of contract and, ]

you guessed it, we had to sell this house to buy the land. mmmm.

Now we owned a block of land and had to rent a house, the slide downhill could hardly get worse.

The whole time we were showing the plan - "you'll make it just keep going"

During this whole period of about 3 years we had achieved some moderate success, up to 15% pin (3250PV), with the normal situation of distributors falling out the bottom of the funnel as quick as we were putting them in the top. Anyway, still trying to make some money in photography, I bought into a franchise business and worked at this for 2 years more while still travelling up up to 2,000klm a month driving interstate to build the Amway business ALL at the same time.

This whole time we are living in a less than desirable rented house but "once you make it all will be OK . . . ."

You guessed it, 2 years in that photography franchise we managed to accumulate about $35,000 in debt, the franchisor still got his 50% of the cash flow but by the time we paid the marketing, rent, phone, electricity, schools etc, we were just going backwards. I believe this was because our total focus was on Amway the other STUFF in life just flows over you until you get a wake up call like THE BANK, you owes us $$$$$$$$$$$ and the only asset you have now is this land.

During this turbulent period we actually did manage to go SILVER (7,500 PV or 21% bonus level), kept a cheque that month for about $2,000 and never had that volume again - so much for ongoing income, If I could have in the bank every cent we spent on TAPES, BOOKS, FUNCTIONS AND PRODUCTS, I would have had enough to pay this damn $35,000 and some left to actually take the kids on a holiday.

It was about this time that my little brain said - ENOUGH Amway, deep down I had known it for a while but who wants to be a Quitter, a Looser .. m mm m

So we withdrew from Amway and THE SYSTEM at this point.

You guessed it, we had to sell the land and pay all the equity to the bank, BUT that wasn't all we still owed them and others big time - that's when we were left with the $35,000 and nothing left to sell to pay it. I had to find a normal day job working for wages and over the next 3 years worked in a variety of positions within Sales and the IT industry with my wife also going back to full time work to start on the road to repay all these people the money that was owed.

We had a windfall inheriting half a house during this period, and actually managed to save some money while paying off the debts and took the whole family on a 4 week Holiday to the USA. This is a lifetime memory for us and WOULD NEVER HAD BEEN ALLOWED if we were in THE SYSTEM and counseled upline about it. Guess where that money would have gone . . . . .

You guessed it - into building my upline pockets, sorry I meant, building the business - NOT that I'm bitter and twisted at all.

We are only just now getting the last of these debts cleared and starting to have a life again - the whole ordeal has been about TEN years.

For the last 12 months I have been selling real estate which was something that I have wanted to do for a long time and the opportunity came up and I grabbed it and it is finally starting to pay dividends, this time I am focussed on the career and not being distracted by Amway. My wife has also secured a job in Real Estate as an Admin Manager and is earning excellent money.

We have chosen to get on with life - normal JOBS, normal holidays, normal houses, normal family, normal friends ----- and it ain't half bad either.

I am just glad that our marriage managed to survive this ordeal!

THINK VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE POURING YOUR ENERGY, FOCUS & FUNDS INTO THIS VENTURE

YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE JOURNEY AND THE RECOVERY COULD BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAMILY, PARTNER AND BANK ACCOUNT.

How do we know this ????

SOME NOTES -

Diamond Kicked Out -

During this period in the Amway business, we put up with an upline Diamond that was dishonest, corrupt, unethical and downright nasty.

The Yager system protects these uplines with the - NO DE-EDIFICATION RULE, NO NEGATIVE DOWNLINE and the NO CROSS-LINING RULE

We have a Diamond who is actually making their own tools (tapes and duplicating IDA tapes illegally, books, literature) and fleecing everyone in our group anytime they get near them. Leaving $400/$500 worth of tools with people who couldn't afford them and then harassing them for the money. And here we are in a position where we can't say anything negative downline, we can't de-edify our upline Diamond and we can't discuss this with other HUMAN BEINGS in other legs who may be experiencing the same horrors . . . . ..

During our last 12 months active in the business, we complained to Amway about this misconduct and dozens of people, good people, within our business also complained directly to Amway .. . . AND

You guessed it - We were not alone - apparently 5 other legs also were in process of complaining about the misconduct - who would have known, remember NO CROSSLINING.

The short story is that Amway, after a mammoth battle, actually REMOVED them - they are no more, never to grace the shores of Amway again BUT

You guessed it - they are now the highest Australian pin in MELALEUCA - I thought what goes around - comes around, not yet anyway.

Diamond Divorce and then one forced out

Also the best upline diamond we had, a successful man prior to the Amway system, ends up divorced with his wife taking over the Diamond business and it appears that he was squeezed out by the big upline Yager Diamond here in Australia and the Amway corporation itself.

That was also a nail in the coffin for us - we admired this man for his vision and achievements and when he was forced OUT of the business by Amway that was it for us. I still have contact with this man and in fact mentor with him. He has been massively successful outside of Amway with his own National company turning over tens of millions each year. What a loss to Amway and all the people that are still in there.

A 10 year Emerald - still working and still not Diamond?????????

An upline Emerald ( has been Emerald for at least 10 years) is still working a normal day job like everyone else.

After 10 years with an emerald income how is this possible - maybe the income that is promoted is false . .mmmm...

After 10 years at the Emerald level - dripping with credibility, how is it that he has not gone Diamond . . . If some one who has achieved at this high level can't move to Diamond what chance do we plebs have that have no credibility at all .. . m m mm .. . .good question eh!

DON'T . ....................

DON'T Associate with anyone negative - (read that as - only talk to Amway upline and downline)

One tape by the great Bert Gulick (Executive Diamond) - Tape called "Habits" -- says that "if you family and relatives are negative - Don't have anything to do with them for at least 30 days - disassociate yourself with them -

DON'T listen to the NEWS on the radio or TV - (if it's bad enough you'll find out anyway - it's just negative stories which won't help at all)

Don't keep doing what you've been doing OR you'll get what you've got - I applied this to the Amway business after 10 years of doing it! I guess this little saying backfired on them - I certainly didn't want what I got there so I thought I better stop.

Scott,

I was downline from all this - My wife and I were silver producers(21%) and also had 2 downline Silvers(Briefly)

ALL from The Yager System - -

Phil & Lisa Smart - Diamonds under Peter & Helen McKenna who are downline from Bert Gulick, Gerry & Cherry Meadows and then Yager.

Phil & Lisa are now divorced with Phil reportedly being forced out of the business by Amway and the McKennas over issues with the tools system/breaks.

Lisa remains in the business and Phil has moved on and is very successful having a national company of his own.

http://www.workpac.com.au

Phil is here - http://www.workpac.com.au/wppublic/History.aspx

Celia Thorburn & Graham Duck - Diamonds under Phil & Lisa Smart

TERMINATED BY AMWAY AUSTRALIA

(Celia qualified Emerald and was on her way to Diamond and Graham simply married into it)

Celia invented her own tools system and took huge amounts of money off anyone she came in contact with.

All new distributors were slugged at least $300/$400 if they visited her office.

We had a long painful association and battle with her - she would constantly undermine any good that was done -

She would go in and de-edify everyone upline, Us, other emeralds, even Phil Smart and Peter McKenna . . .

Amway actually removed her for constant and prolonged breaches - her entire business revolted against her (except for 1 leg)

There is lots more to this story but not enough time to give it all to you. . . .

She is now powering on - ripping it into people in Melaluca - saw a big article show her & Graham as one of the highest pins here in Australia . . .mmmmm .. .

Arthur & Lyn Davis - Emeralds under Phil & Lisa Smart - STILL WORKING

( Arthur was Emerald and Lyn was a direct from another system and married Arthur)

Arthur has been an Emerald for at least 10 years and is still working . . . . .
We hear plenty of noise about the emerald income being the CASH FLOW of a millionare without the Assetts. . . m m mm . . .

Tony & Julie Swathfield - Diamonds under Peter & Helen McKenna

Tony was reported to have been killed in a HUNTING ACCIDENT . . . . .

Out on the farm on his own etc etc

The whole matter was very very fishy - right down to how the news was relayed to all -
Most believe that it was suicide - but no one in the amway world will discuss such real things as this of course - wouldn't want to be negative . . .

There is more and I will send it thru as I get time.

Scott:

I've been enjoying your site for a few years now. We were in the Goldman/Michaels group in Toronto for about 5 years from 1993 - 1998... experienced most of what you have documented here, and then some.

We made 2500 and I started to really question things when my upline said I should have purchased my 4000 pin. I was out within a year of that happening.

Scott,

I was introduced to Quixtar over the weekend by a friend and thought it was the biggest joke. My friend that has been in the company for three months guarantees he will be a millionaire in less than five years. Telling the five people he had at the meeting that they could join him if they started today. I did a MLM with a now disfunctional company by the name of Equinox International. Lost my ass, but thats besides point. I just don't want people to make the same mistake I did. Thanks T.J.

Hey Scott

I wanted to respond to a post I saw with regards to Quixtar. I was wondering if you could give me a little more background on the company and its practices. I have a friend living in Michigan who is completely sold on this business, almost to the point of distancing all of his friends if they don't sign up. He has been a teacher for 5 years so to see him act in this way is amazing. Although many of us have tried to tell him he won't get rich, he seems to think he will be a millionaire in 5 years. Every time you ask him about the company he dodges the question. Any info you could offer about the company would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Brian

Dear Scott,

English is not my mother language, but I hope that you will understand essence of my letter.

I have one very sad experience with Amway, but I never be in it.

A year ago my boyfriend joined Amway. At the time I did not know anything about this job, but I felt that something is not right there.

He used to talk me about big money, success and other thing which are told by all Amway zombies and at same time he asked me for money for gas.

After some time he started to act very strange, this changes came slowly also radical changed his personality.

He started to tell me how women should follow her man wherever he goes. In dark era before Amway came, he was proud on my independence.

All the time I thought he was an intelligent person so will see thing clearly after he spend some time in The system. But I was wrong.

We argued always. I lost my respect for him. And he was just talking how I will ask him to join in when I see his success. O yes, of course. Second phase : he started to ignore me because he saw that I will never became part of his world.

He found new friend, they used to call him in midnight, people I did not know.

He stated to talk about God and became very religious.

Last time I saw him we were on dinner and He asked me for last time if I will join. I said NO WAY. Than he said , we have no same goals in life and we should break up. I did not believe him, I must admit. Something so trivial like Amway can separate two people, really I did not believe that this is possible.

third phase: I called him after some time, because I thought that he saw thing. He called me a dream stealer. Me, dream stealer??? I was his best friend for 7 years, in bad and good. Than I became his worst enemy on this world. Everything what is bad, negative, pessimistic has my shape, because I told him that Amway is some kind of cult.

He was yelling at me over phone, he accused me that I want to drag him back, and that he will go just further. and many other not very beautiful word. After he calmed down he told me that if I joined to Amway everything will be different now.

It was enough for me. I never called him again, I left him with his new friend. I was very sad but also decided to move on with my life. And now it is Ok, better than I thought it would be.

A time will come, I am sure of it, and he will see what is going on in this golden opportunity, and than he will be very sad person because he hurt me very much and promised thousand time that he will never do that. Me, I will survive and I also know that I did everything what was in my power to save our relationship but still he trade me for Amway.

Sad isn t it??????

I am interesting for similar experiences so if you have some or if you can give me some comment I will appreciate it

Thank you

Nina

Scott -

Great website! I found it to be informative and unbiased. After a co-worker loaned me a CD (Private Franchising in a Dot Com World) I checked out Quixar, found the Amway connection, and decided to read the "graffiti on the bathroom wall", as they refer to the Internet searches.

I saw that you had a link to Dave Ramsey - he's awesome! A great Christian, and his teachings have really turned our lives around. Can't say enough good things about him. Too many AmQuix people are looking for a microwave solution to something that requires a crock-pot.

Per the Quixtar website, "The average Monthly Gross Income for "Active" IBOs was $115."

Why should I devote one more hour of my precious time to something like this!

Keep up the great work.

John

Scott:

Diamond Ron Goldman as my immediate upline in Toronto... wondered if you had any info about them.

The year we quit, we had three counseling sessions with Ron (Diane had basically stopped from what we could tell - health problems). The first two were before opens where WE bought him dinner... the third was at his big house where he gave us books he was finished reading... didn't even offer us a cup of coffee. His advice to us after hearing we had been doing 15-20 plans a month for six months but only 3 new people sponsored: "Double it".

That was the extent of his strategy - more of what already wasn't working.

We didn't quit right away, but very soon after.

Keep up the great work!

Dave

G'Day Scott,

Great job mate! You have done and continue to do a great service in protecing many people from their own greed and stupidity before they do this "business"; and exposing the truth about how the "leaders" make really make their hoards of cash. DeVos and Van Andel must either be silently disgusted by it (not enough obviously) yet powerless to act lest they lose a major source of wealth, or jealous that they don't have a share in the spoils.

Your info about the tools is the icing on the cake that led me to stop doing this joke of a business, and I can't tell you how much my love life, social life and finances have improved since "quitting". You hear all of the "leaders" quote each other when expressing their passion for the business. I would like to quote lyrics from a Metallica song "Leper Messiah" from the album "Master of Puppets" (appropriate title, I know) which articulates my own view better than I'm able to right now. These AMOs are nothing more than mind controlling cults. Thanks son!! Read on, and keep up the fantastic work!

SPINELESS FROM THE START, SUCKED INTO THE PART
CIRCUS COMES TO TOWN, YOU PLAY THE LEAD CLOWN
PLEASE, PLEASE
SPREADING HIS DISEASE, LIVING BY HIS STORY
KNEES, KNEES
FALLING TO YOUR KNEES, SUFFER FOR HIS GLORY
YOU WILL
TIME FOR LUST, TIME FOR LIE
TIME TO KISS YOUR LIFE GOODBYE
SEND ME MONEY, SEND ME GREEN
HEAVEN YOU WILL MEET
MAKE A CONTRIBUTION
AND YOU’LL GET A BETTER SEAT
BOW TO LEPER MESSIAH

MARVEL AT HIS TRICKS, NEED YOUR SUNDAY FIX
BLIND DEVOTION CAME, ROTTING YOUR BRAIN
CHAIN, CHAIN
JOIN THE ENDLESS CHAIN, TAKEN BY HIS GLAMOUR
FAME, FAME
INFECTION IS THE GAME, STINKING DRUNK WITH POWER
WE SEE
TIME FOR LUST, TIME FOR LIE
TIME TO KISS YOUR LIFE GOODBYE
SEND ME MONEY, SEND ME GREEN
HEAVEN YOU WILL MEET
MAKE A CONTRIBUTION
AND YOU’LL GET A BETTER SEAT
BOW TO LEPER MESSIAH

WITCHERY, WEAKENING
SEES THE SHEEP ARE GATHERING
SET THE TRAP, HYPNOTIZE
NOW YOU FOLLOW
TIME FOR LUST, TIME FOR LIE
TIME TO KISS YOUR LIFE GOODBYE
SEND ME MONEY, SEND ME GREEN
HEAVEN YOU WILL MEET
MAKE A CONTRIBUTION
AND YOU’LL GET A BETTER SEAT
BOW TO LEPER MESSIAH

LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE……………

I did not see any information on your website regarding Quixtar. I'm a member, and our philosophy is, "Quixtar's model is broken". The fan-out/pyramid MLM model does not work. period. Whether it is Quixtar, Avon, Pampered Chef, ...whatever, if it is a pyramid, it won't work. Our LOS uses the Quixtar website, but the business runs much differently...so much that our LOS is growing at 338% faster than any other Quixtar team. 3500 new people a month are joining Quixtar, less than 1/2 of 1% drop out, and record numbers of people are hitting silver, gold, diamond, emerald status.

Philosophically, I do not believe that a referral business is wrong. The method of making money by you getting ten people, to each get ten people, and so on...before you make money is wrong. Let me know what you know, or have heard, about Quixtar.

Curtis

mr. larsen,

is there any way possible you could explain to me anything about Quixtar? i've heard great things about them, i was just wondering if it really works. is it a scam or is it for real? let me know anything you know about the company. i just don't want to waste time and money on a hoax.

thanks,

Ed

I think I have gotten my boyfriend to "see the light!" Of course, this may not work for everyone, but, I had gone to mlmsurvivors.com and also looked up Multi-Level Marketing under my Search engine. I had printed out A LOT of stuff on MLM's and Quixtar/Amway that I was reading in order to find out all I could. My boyfriend found these items and started reading them...on his own. Although he did meet with his upline and decided that this business was still "it", he was still questioning more than he had before. I then began reading Ruth Carter's book and found it very helpful. My boyfriend also began reading this and then started looking info up on the internet....he has now decided that he is not going to make $$$$ and that he has not "pushed products," he has only been lining pockets with the motivational "tools" (and pushing these as well). I have found it extremely helpful to encourage him to make his own decisions, which he has. Our life is now getting back to normal and we are looking for a REAL business opportunity to do together!!

Thank you so much for your help and for guiding me to the right places for additional information!

Scott,

I have got to tell you how funny it was when I found your site. I got a good chuckle.

I was involved with Amway/Quixtar in the mid-90's. To me, most of them seemed to be good people. I was often preached "delayed gratification" and I believed it. In fact, I still do today. There were many highs and many lows. I was impressed that during my first year and a half I had three upline achieve Diamond. I was close to reading the Direct level when our organization was going through a low spot.

Then, there was a shift. My business quickly died. My immediate upline lost two. I now had 3 people between myself and my Emerald. After going almost two years of weekly interaction with my upline, it seemed to stop. Some bickering took place in my upline. Then one of them introduced me to TIF. He advised me how this plan gets money into my pocket faster. My response shocked him. "What about steadily building a successful business and delayed gratification?" He responded "Why wait when you can get money from the sale of a MAP ... and who else can afford a $5 tube of toothpaste?" After saying I wasn't interested, I got three more calls from him. On the third call, he informs me that my Emerald had left Quixtar and went to TIF. Then I received the "TIF" letter from Rob Davidson at Quixtar. Then I received a letter from my upline Diamond asking me to join a "special" meeting regarding Quixtar and TIF.

I gave up after that. I turned down TIF and left Quixtar. I found my old Quixtar card and letter from the corporation today while cleaning, and was curious as to what the status of TIF was these days. Your site definitely informed me.

Dear Scott,

I was brousing the internet the other night and I came accross your site. I must admit I'm a little suprised. I don't know that your still positing these, but I figured I'd give you some feedback anyway. It's very obvious that some people have had some bad expierences with Quickstar out there. However, I thought I'd just take a minute to point out the fact that there are still good people out there building the businnes who do care about others and are willing to help. I can't answer for everyone, but I can say for my self that I love and respect my line of sponsership. They are genuine people who care about me and my success. TRUST ME OK. My upline Emerald works with me personally not because he needs any more money. He's doin just fine without me. He works with me bacause he really cares.

So, before your so quick to post all people's negative comments on a website maybe you should look into someone elses perspective. I know what it's done for me and how much I've grown because of the leadership in my team. I don't know where I'd be today without it.

Furthermore, I can't believe that so many people are thanking your website for saving them from a possible mistake. I mean come on, let's be realisitic about this. These people are obviously searching for something different or else they wouldn't have found your site. How can someone say I'm glad I found your site before I made a big mistake. This isn't anything personal, but all your site is, is a bunch of people who QUIT and now don't want anyone else to make it because they want us to join in their misery. New people who don't join because of your site have something wrong with them. They see an opportunity and then just let it pass because of someone's negative response posted on the internet that they don't even know.

In closing I want to say this. I'm glad my mind was opened enough to realize that it can be done, and I listened to people with fruit on the tree and not a bunch of people that can't teach me anything except how to be negative. After all, Henry Ford said it best in one of his books, "Wether you think you can or you think you can't, either way your right" So, if the buiness is not for you or the others, that's fine, but please don't try to bash and ruin it for the one's that still have hope in thier lives and are striving to make a difference.

Thanks, Ryan

Hello Scott,

Just curious as to why your site is not negative towards Quixtar/Amway but is more informative. I'm an inactive distributor, haven't lost much, since I haven't spent much, so I don't have any complaints, and enjoyed the atmosphere, etc. Do you have a page of your personal opinion on Amway/Quixtar or any alternative with the same cash flow for those who do the work that gets them the cash flow? Well, if you have time, I'd love to hear from you, because I really enjoyed reading your site and expected a lot of empty "cult" and "pyramid" talks (as if that was not in the majority of the work world...) So, write if you can, if not, thanks for the site and the interesting information it contains. Just very curious on your position given the time and work put into the site, but honestly no empty negative. Thank$!

Sincerely,

Drewkai

Hello Scott,

Keep up the good work!

-EL
"ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI"

Hi Scott,

Your site is very informative and quite true, speaking as a past distributor...I mean sucker....

I was wondering if you have any information on the Combden (INterbiz) organization up here in Canada. I have heard rumblings from people still actively involved that the business is deteriorating fast. I noticed that Casey and Cathy are notably mentioned in your Divorce section...ah, how I remember the great speeches about how "the Business" saved their marriage...oh well c'est la Vie eh? anyhow I will keep returning to your site to see if there are any updates.....

Dave,

thanks for putting in the time for create the public awareness web site on "the Business"

Scott,

My wife and I were in the audience when they Lyons were first introduced to the Team 5000 assembly as new Diamonds. Everyone was truly surprised and dutifully impressed.

I had had several conversations with both of them before and after their promotion. They came across as the most sincere people on the planet. My wife and I were certainly taken by their "real" persona. Hal seemed to be very laid back and Harriet was certainly the "leader." Several things that contributed to the shock and awe of their meteoric rise was the fact that we never saw evidence of rapid team growth. We just woke up one day and they were Diamonds. In retrospect, we should have been more suspicious. But, then again we are all new in the business.

You must also take into consideration the totality of the situation. As I was not closely associated with them I could not get a solid feeling as to their character. Like everyone else, I relied on our Upline to present an honest picture of their accomplishments. One would naturally assume that if they were presented, and endorsed, by Chuck and Colleen as new Diamonds, that their achievement was real. As there is always that carrot of accomplishment that anyone can go Diamond in 18 to 24 months, why would you doubt their having done just that? I don't know of anyone who would have suspected "foul play" particularly since it appeared that Quixtar acknowledged their Diamond status.

A very interesting occurrence.

PS: Is there an information source where someone can confirm the status of the higher pins? Is it possible to confirm if a Platinum, Emerald or Diamond is still in qualification for their respective pin?

Well Scott,

Such a deal, the folks (Diamond cast offs) from Amway have created a new improved "Amway" MLM business of their own. The sad part of this is, at one time my wife and I were living in Chicago and knew Gerry Betterman, the Plaucks, the Jakubiks and the Haagens before they had great success with the Amway corporation. I had respect for them and their accomplishments as an Amway IBO. Now, it appears they have neither the ethics nor integrity of sharing the truth. They either are extremely naive, or believe people to be stupid not to recognize their story from the Amagram. Heck, I was there when they were recognized as new Amway Diamonds...DUH, what Hypocrites!

Is there no such thing as honesty and Integrity left in the world today? Makes it very hard to have respect for people you seen as role models and leaders. Only to see they have left no doubt they will use tactics that are beneficial to their own cause at the risk of being deceitful. What a pity...and to make matters worse, do these people not realize, trying to disguise the past to those of us who have first hand knowledge of their background, makes us want to avoid them. Due to the mere fact, if you are willing to be untruthful about your past. How can you be trusted with the future?

I suppose only the future can answer this question in full.

Dear Scott, I'm surprised that you don't have more positive letters on your site. I suppose that people who don't question the business would not look at your site. I am only looking at your site because a friend of mine told me I would get a kick out of it...and trust me I do. Here is my story.

In 1993 I saw the business from my sponsor (who is now in Emerald qualification) while I was in college. I took 2 1/2 months to research the business and the people and I decided to jump in with both feet. I was in college so obviously I did not have much money for vitamins etc. Therefore I did what they taught (many do not) and I got myself some customers. Most of my customers were girls in my apartment complex who used the cosmetics. I did about 150pv a month in retail and 50pv in personal use. I spent no more on products (mostly food items) than I would have normally. Thus I did not over extend my budget. The 150 pv that I did in retail netted me a profit each month of about $80. I used this money to purchase books, tapes, and attend my first meetings. I sponsored 3 people my first month and they all followed the same format and got some customers. We did not badger our customers. We simply asked them to try our products and if they liked them they could buy them from us. I DID NOT say that all of our products were cheaper. I simply told them that we have a competitively priced line of cleaning supplies ( I explained concentration in detail), high quality vitamins and supplements, as well as a high quality line of cosmetics. If price was an issue I DID NOT oversell them. Many of my customers are still great customers today.

The reason that I go into great detail as to how I treated my customers (which was taught by my WWDB upline) is to show people that you don't have to spend thousands on products and stockpile them to be successful. I simply bought what I needed and redirected a portion of my food budget. The rest I created through customers.

Through duplication...my second full month in the business I reached 1000pv, my 9^th month 2500pv, my 11^th month 4000pv, and my 18^th month 7500pv. I them proceeded to solidify my business and qualified platinum in 1996 on my 25^th birthday. In 1997 I fell out of qualification when a divorced occurred in one of my bigger legs. Yes...it does happen. I currently have about 125 IBO's in our organization and there have been 3 divorces in 10 years. Not bad if I do say so myself.

In 1997 I also met my future wife. It's kind of funny...because before we went on our first date a friend of hers asked here..."what if you find out that he's the guy of your dreams and he's in Amway?" She said that she would say "take me home baby, your not the one." Well...her first question was "what do you do?" I DID NOT use the curiosity approach. I simply said..."I have a large Amway business." We'll...as you guessed...I did not take her home. We just celebrated our 4^th anniversary

Back to my Amway story. When I did not re-qualify in 1997 I decided that I would tell our group that we were no longer qualified. And at a leaders meeting in 1998 I told them that I was very proud of them and honored to be in business with them and that we were no longer qualified platinums. My biggest concern was that they would think it was their fault and that was not my purpose. My purpose was so that it would take the pressure of me and that I would not have to "fake it". It turned out to be a very positive meeting.

In 1999 I continued to work the business 1-2 nights/week (Yes 1-2 nights/week does work if you/re consistent) and went back into platinum qualification. Not only did we qualify platinum that year but we qualified Q12 and have qualified Q12 ever since.

In our business today we have about 45 people (that includes couples) attending functions. I do not pressure people to attend functions I simply encourage them and do not make them feel bad if they do not show up. That is a great way to get people to quit. That 45 people represents about 25 IBO "ships". Of the 25 IBO "ships". There is not one that makes less than $100/month and there are 15 that make over $250/month and 4 that make over $700/month. That is a combination of pv check and retail. You see...you MUST have retail to make for a positive environment. If a person is making money they will be happy even if it is $100/month. You might be asking...what about all of the other IBO's. Yes...30% will not renew. Are they negative you ask? NO...if a person does not have it in their heart to build the business...DON'T PUSH THEM! The rest about 55% of our IBO's are what I like to refer to as a PRO-SUMER. They are simply happy buying products to save money or for the convenience.

Okay...let's answer the question of product prices. It's simple...if someone gets in to save money here is what I tell them. "If you're in the business just to save money and you see a product that we sell and it's more expensive than a comparable brand...DON'T BUY IT!" You should see the puzzled look on there face...as if to say "that make's sense." You won't go to hell if you buy a Brand X product!

The important thing is that you don't push people beyond where they want to go. And guess what?...The friends that I had before the business...They are still my friends...even the one's who quit. In fact I went golfing with one last week and he told me how he appreciated the fact that I never judged him for quitting. He has since asked if he can buy some of his favorite products from me.

In 2002 we averaged about 9,000 pv and kept about $3,000/month from our pv check. That means we will make about $46,000 this year from quixtar. I will have about $1,000 that I spend on tapes and tools and since I am a founders plantinum (Q12) the only functions that I have to pay for are Go diamond weekend (about $700 since we stay at the Disneyland Hotel) and Reunion ($455/couple). Add another $1,000 for misc junk and our yearly overead is about $3,200. Not bad. An average IBO in our business who is actively building it will spend about $700/year on tapes, $1,600 on functions, and say...$300 on misc. stuff. If they are at a distance it may be about $1,000/ year more since 2 functions would be out of town. That's $2600-$3,600/year. For the ones that are making over $250/month ($3,000/year)...they are set. The ones making $100/month will have to come up with some money out of their own pocket. Still...not bad. The key is to let the IBO make their own decision and don't use excessive persuasion to get them to do something they don't want to do. But don't forget that an IBO who show's a legitimate effort to make a profit will have some tax advantages. But make sure that you do not abuse them or you will be target for an audit.

Bottom line is this. Showing the plan 1-2 times/ week does work and you don't have to sponsor 75 people to be successful. In 10 years I have sponsored a total of 24 people. I did, however, bring them in, in groups which is vital to achieving momentum. I am aware that I will need to up my effort to 4-5 nights/ week to go diamond and I am currently at about 3 nights/week the past month or so.

Since 1999 I have still had a job as a loan officer and have downed my hours to part time as of 2000 and have moved my office home. I have also done what my upline taught and I delayed my gratification. My wife and I have banked our pv checks since 1999 and currently have about $100,000 in the bank, 2 new cars that are paid for, and no debt. We currently pay 10 bonus checks in our business and will most likely hit ruby in the next month or two. Our twin boys will be 1 on September 5^th and I have been able to see every moment of their life. My wife and I are excited yet controlled. We are not Amroids...nor is Amway our religion. (I know it's quixtar but I thought I'd just cut through the crap). We DO NOT only hang out with other IBO's nor do we approach every breathing human being. We are selective in our process and we DO take NO for an answer.

That, may friends, is how you become successful in the Amway/Quixtar opportunity. The KEY...don't be a MORAN! Treat people right and you will have all the dreams that you are willing to work for. Thanks for listening.

Sincerely,

Mike 32 year old semi retired Quixtar IBO

My upline was not happy with me for stopping our standing order and withdrawing from function participation. And he had made every excuse in the book for Howie's omission of mention of previous marriage. He reiterated over and over how WWDB is DIFFERENT than the other lines of sponsorship, and when I brought up the lawsuit that was just filed, he said he had to go. Then he called me back about half hour later to say that "the organization tried very hard to remove Ron Puryear's name from the lawsuit, since he has more integrity than the others they cited, and WWDB isn't in the same league, they are NOT DECEPTIVE - but they were not able to remove his name." I've since tried to find additional information on WWDB specifically, but haven't really found a whole lot.

 Scott, yes, thanks, can you tell me anything more about WIN (World Information network)? I am still an IBO within this group. I don't see them in your information. What can you tell me, if anything. I am trying to discern how to present my case to my friends and up-line and want to be as fair and as careful as I can be as to why I am about to pull out of this business. Fortunately the recent article in the business section of the KC Star (re. the law suits recorded in MO you have also recorded in your most recent addition) alerted me and confirmed for me some ill feelings I have started to have. Your web site has given very credible evidence as to my and wife's negative feelings about the "tools and functions" stuff which seemed much too much both emotionally and financially (given the poor presentations, evangelical nonsense and lack of real content). Fortunately I am not in too deep and have not added on too many folks yet. Where is WIN re. the Yeager genealogy? I can't seem to ascertain that. One of the things you alluded to is what I cannot tell is the growth. I have been at meetings in Wichita, Topeka and Overland Park where anywhere between three dozen to five hundred people show up. At the early summer Topeka meeting, the largest group I've seen, easily half of the attendees were not at 100 PV, which got my attention and through your information indicates this as quite normal. My friend, who attended with us, talked with a guy he knew who had been in the business for at least three years and had not done 100 PV. This got my attention as I began to wonder what other need(s) is fulfilled coming to a meeting supposedly designed to give content (I thought) information as to how to build a business. The speaker was quite inarticulate and gave me (us) little to no useful information. Anyway the explanation that I got from my up-line was that "well, gee, that half were new people" and "this a type meeting to inspire new people" which didn't seem plausible, and after reading most of your web material, is less so now! These functions were all WIN (www.winibo). I will appreciate anything further you can tell me. Thanks again for what is a great service.

Just a little interesting note. The Meijer stores (a Grand Rapids, MI based store) has donated over 200,000 bottles of water for people in Southeastern Michigan and they have donated the use of generator trucks to the hospitals. The ever lovely Amway/Quixtar (Michigan based) has not donated a thing to help anyone in this state in the last two days.

Take Care and as always keep up the good work.
Patti

Hey Scott,

you must be board & having lots of extra time. I assume that you paid cash for your car & house. You have no debt & that is why you spend lots of time on-line. If not - what a heck are you doing on the Internet? Fighting for the truth?

The truth is that you own lots of money & will work restless for the rest of your life without a hope to become financially free. Think about how you spend (waste) your time.

Sincerely,

Jason

Hi,

yes, you are not the first who claims he has money.

Your "money" in so called investments - it's a virtual money.

When you cash it - you get different numbers.

I know lots of broke folks who say that.

No house but if I want - pay cash and blah, blah like that

Challenge you?

Why? Stay negative & poison yourself.

Good like, Mister Investor

Hi Scott,

the way you talk - seems to me that you are just a teeneger or something.

So there is no challenge to take.

I have already took couple - with folk who have only virtual money - on papers, retirement & all kind of programs for loosers. No real green bucks.

You better change the way you think & live.

Good buy.

I will block emails from you.

I don't have time for teens so far.

Hey Scott I was just wondering where your hate came from? Did you have a bad experience with amway or quixtar or what? If you could write me back and let me know that would be great thanks.

Mike

Scott,

It's always interesting to read stuff that lawyers have helped write.

Unless you've been part of the "culture" of the Amway systems, it's hard to understand how manipulative, controlling and greedy these people really are. The disputes are described in such conventional terms by lawyers that I think alot of the impact of what these people are like is lost. But I think that what the average person who is not an "insider" doesn't get from the court documents is just how seedy the BSM world is. I liken it to organized crime. And when you think about it, since there are such huge dollars funding these people's lifestyles, who knows to what lengths these people may have already gone to to protect their fortunes from "intruders".

When I had to resolve my dispute thru Jody Victor and the ADA Board, I thought we were unique. But now I realize how busy Victor and the board must be cuz it seems they're dealing with SO many line of sponsorship disputes these days. And it's all about the same thing - how an upline is trying to be a DICK to his group leaders who don't buy their garbage anymore.

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