Hi Scott,

You don't know me, and that doesn't really matter.. I checked through your site about Amway/Quixtar, and decided not to buy into the big scheme. Here are a few recent e-mails between me and the guy who was trying to sell me into the IBO system.....

(8-27-01...first of two that day, after I went through your site a another...)

Hi Krys & Steve,

Here is what I would like from you Monday night, or sooner, if you get back from your trips... ( hoping you had a lot of fun and achieved alot).

I would like a list of 6-10 of the IBO's working under you and their respective e-mail addresses, and a listing of the IBO's/diamonds above you, along with their e-mail addresses also.

I'd be curious to see your own balance sheet from your business.

Talk to you soon..

Peter

(8-27-01, and I decided to call off a meeting and tried to be polite about it)

Hi Guys,

Sorry about this, but I have to cancel the meeting monday night. My attorney wants to review the legal documents involved with the IBO agreement & compendium. She suggests that I go no further at this time until she reads and reviews these documents with me.

I know you understand, and I'll be in contact real soon.

Peter

(8-28-01...this sounds like a guy who wants to be my friend ??? )

peter

I need my 3 tapes back ASAP please. please leave them at the top of my stairs outside of my apartment tomorrow!!

steve

(8-28-01, a reply)

Steve,

Sorry it's taken me this long..I'll try to get the tapes to you tommorrow, and if not, I'll put them inthe mail to ya....

Among other things that kills me about the Amway/Quixtar alliance is this thing about 'support materials' and these kinda tapes.....most companies out there would never think about asking for these kinds of materials back.....it's kinda interesting that someone would say..." come join this great organization...listen to these great sales and motivational tapes, ...oh by the way I need them back as soon as possible..."

Or a business that says "hey this is great !! " but when a reasonably intelligent person asks for a list of names for references, ( e-mail a few days ago), I get no response. Krys told me last friday that she'd get me Mark Lee's number so I could talk to him. Now, bear in mind that Mark and I travel in several similar social circles, so sooner or later I will talk to him....

I asked you for a few names of you up line and down line and got no response.....and you expect me to trust you when you won't even furnish some basic references ????

Hey, take a few minutes and check these sites :

Click Here: <A HREF="http://www.amquix.info/amway.html">Business Analysis of the Quixtar Amway Opportun…</A>

Click Here: <A HREF="http://amquix.info/probst/reasons.htm">Reasons To Read This Site</A>

And see why I was not only hesitant to join with Amway many years ago, but am now even more skeptical now....same shell game, different name...164 page document that says that the company has all the power and the IBO can't do squat.....

Hope you find some enlightening reading in the above sites

Peter

(8-29-01....sounds like an angry response to me....)

hey peter

as far as the garbage letter goes...i'll put it where it belongs...in the trash.

I'm sorry we misjudged your character. we wish you all the luck in your engraving career. krys will pick the tapes up at your work tomorrow.

steve

[scott.......]

So if character has anything to do with being skeptical I guess I'm the 'bad guy' ??? How do you spell b-r-a-i-n-w-a-s-h-e-d ????? 'Garbage letter'.....again, this is from a guy who wants me to join the organization...and he doesn't even have a response to s aew simple questions ????? makes me wonder MORE

Again, thanks scott

Peter

I am very thankful that you wrote back to me and I value your opinion. I am not hostile to your view. I am sympathetic to folks who have had bad experiences and I applaud your efforts to inform, keep it up.

Don't hesitate to call a spade a spade I don't.

I find no business substance to the nuts and bolts of the function of how to run a product sales oriented operation at the seminars. It is mostly rah rah and very little substance presented at meetings. I have seen this before. I have taken the time to read court cases re Amway etc and the findings of the courts are very revealing. They have held in the past that Amway etc is very misleading to its member ibo s and that the practices constitute restraint of trade etc. One case goes on for about 100 pages describing this. Even though technically now things are different, depending on whom you talk to, it is still the same thing.

Well thanks again for your reply.

I will be happy to answer any questions from you the best I can.

Yours,

I personally think it's hilarious that you choose to try to destroy people's dreams. I've been known to be an asshole at times, but damn man, you take the cake. I love your quote They know their dream isn't big enough to cause them to be stupid enough to try. You remind me of the masses of today's population. The poor/middle class. Were your parents rich? Or did they lead a stressful life trying to pay the bills on time their whole life? Did they or do you produce residual income? And what the hell is wrong with creating a system that produces residual income? Bill Gates did it, Henry Ford did it, Ray Croc did it, Dexter Yager did it. There's a story from Hawaii about the black crabs that crawl around on the rocks in the surf. The local kids run up and collect them in coffee cans, and they rattle around, rattle around, until one of them realizes that all the rattling around isn't productive. He looks up, see's the light, and then tries to hook one of his legs up on the edge of the can. Finally, he'll get there, pull himself up, and view the free world that's out there. All the other crabs look up and pull him back down. A leader is the one that can't let himself be pulled back down, but pull others up. You, Mr. Facts finder, are one who tries to pull people down....like the poor/middle class who ridicule people for dropping out of school to start their own business, then kick themselves later for not listening. You see something good out there, and your first instinct is to try and find the holes to degrade the concept...when in reality, you're simply jealous that you weren't smart enough to come up with it yourself. When you drive through your neighborhood, and see a bunch of kids playing basketball, each of which has the dream to once play in the NBA. Only a very low percentage of them actually make it, do you crush that dream and try to fill their heads with statistics? Or do you let them play and be happy? My guess is that you try and crush that dream...

According to ALL responses you decided to post on your site, they involve people who QUIT. There are no failures in this business, only quitters. The ones that have succeeded in this are people who didn't listen to the ones that quit or are too scared to try and fulfill their dreams, but they listened to ones that made it happen. If you were to try and start your own restaurant, would you ask the ones who had restaurants that failed? Or would you ask the successful restaurant owners what they did to get there? That's what I thought.

I tried Amway before, and I quit. The reason being is because the business model sucked, and I didn't try to duplicate the system. Quixtar is different in that you're dealing with name brand manufacturers, and the option to get core products. You say it's a pyramid, but by definition, a pyramid is A. illegal, B. structured where the guy at the top makes ALL the money, C. Based on finder's fees. I don't get a dime for people registering through the business, and I have a means to make more money than the guy at the top. You also claimed it's MLM. MLM means that you're limited on income potential based on what level you sit in the heirarchy...selling products. I have been in Quixtar now for just over a month, and I have yet to sell anything, and the fact that I have the potential of making more money than the founders, rules that it's not MLM. It's a legal, legitimate business concept that has a proven success rate. If you want to compare and

contrast, lets look at the Olympics. That's a system designed specifically to weed out 'quitters'. The ones that succeed are the ones that strive to achieve their goals, no matter what the road to it entails. Do you have a site designed to discourage people trying to join an Olympic team?

Ever read any of Robert Kiyosaki's books? If not, you should. From what I've read on your site, you have inaccurate information regarding specific details of Quixtar. Their first year, Quixtar did just over 518 Million in revenue, no other company in the world has accomplished that.

The only one I know of that's come close is Compaq, and they only did 100 Million their first year. We are fixing to hit the end of the second year, at over a billion in revenue. I don't care what you say, that's AWESOME for any company to be able to say. What was Wal-Mart's revenue their first year? That bullshit about the questions like, "do you mention Amway/Quixtar in the invite? No? Then you're just like the others." I personally mention it's Quixtar loudly and proudly, just as the rest of my TEAM does. I don't consider myself stupid sir. If you do, that's your opinion. I won't listen to people that try to bring me down, and crush my dreams. Quixtar is a vehicle to reach your goals, creating a business system that's much easier in the long run than ending up like the 97% of today's

population who can't maintain their lifestyle of living when they retire.

You go ahead and remain in the coffee can, I'll be the one climbing out. Oh, and by the way, I noticed your site is geared towards mostly Amway...you mention Quixtar IS Amway, that's like saying that Jaguars are the same as Fords. Or Lexus is the same as Toyota. 2 seperate companies owned by the same people that use different business models, are not the same.

I feel bad for the ones that have put forth the effort to acheive their dreams and goals, then stumbled upon your site, and let you pull them down. Hope you feel proud of yourself. And next time you try and come up with something like this, get your information from the successes, like you would in any other business. That's where the valuable information truly lies.

Thanks,

Tim

Have you listened to some of the new World Wide Group tapes lately?

I think World Wide understands the need to retail and is using contests, clinics, etc. to improve retail and overall PV per IBO numbers. I heard on a tape that WWG's PV per IBO is double that of other groups. Have you heard the same?

Let me know if you have heard the newer tapes from Greg Duncan, etc. He outlines the exact cost of the tapes, books and functions in great detail. I would be happy to forward you a copy of the new information if you would like. I believe the thinking is very much in line with your thinking. That is if you indeed mean what you say about making the business better for everyone.

Best Regards,

Ty

Hey man how are you. It is possible to spend under 200 bucks and get 100pv. We do it all the time. As long as you are buying core line products its easy. 2 Double X is 40 pv right there!

Blake

Dear Scott Larsen,

i challenged you to post this 'site visitor feedback' at the top of your homepage.

i personally feel your website is full of inconsistencies and twisted context. i am in the business...my friend found your website and won't even talk to me now...but that's because he's taking your website as gospel...when, in fact, it is just opinion.

why are you blaming your failure in the business on Quixtar-Amway? did you do everything you were supposed to? did you put in some effort? or did you exprect your fortune to knock on your front door? why don't you lay some of the blame on yourself? is there anything you could have done differently to be successful?

THE SYSTEM WORKS: YOU JUST COULDN"T DUPLICATE THE SYSTEM CONSISTENTLY!!!

WHY BLAME THE SYSTEM? BLAME YOURSELF!

judging by your website:

clearly you don't understand the principle of residual income!

clearly you don't understand the principle of no risk/obligation!

clearly you don't understand that the educational business tools are optional...and can be borrowed at no charge from your up-link!

PEOPLE (such as yourself) MOCK WHAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!

If you put as much effort into being a Quixtar IBO, as you do for your negative website, you could be a success instead of a

bucket-carrying-failure.

Scott, just thought I'd let you know that the Britt FED 2001 ticket cost has just snuck up to $90 advance, $95 at the door. This is up $30 from four years ago! Clearly, with less people buying tickets overall they've had to raise the prices to keep system money flowing.

This is the first function in four years that I decided not to buy a ticket for. I told my upline that for $90 I didn't think it was worth it and I'll go to one when it's less than $90. He didn't try to convince me otherwise, fortunately. My bank account will certainly thank me (ticket, hotel, rental car, restaurants, gas). Of course, in four years I've never seen a function ticket cost *less* than before so I may never attend another major function again! Too bad, because they can be enjoyable. But logic and good sense dictate that the value just isn't there for $90.

Fellow Purdue Grad,

Thank you for this information. Was wondering about it, it is a greta prensentation they make. I went to a meeting with a friend 2 days ago. Information seemed lacking, I questioned if Quixtar was a competitor to Amway, he said yes but he heard they(Amway) were going out of business. I believe he really does not know the connection???? Maybe true in a way???

I asked for a catalog to compare prices to stores-Walgreens, Aldi's, etc., they seemed very high to me, things I cannot sell, at the prices listed Then I noticed the L.O.C. soaps, that got my memory banks thinking about my father/mother-in-law, their plans to save themselves from bankruptcy selling Amway 20 years ago. But it turns out to be all one in the same!!!!!! Just the names changed to avoid the anethma of Amway. Thanks for the info.

If this was really stuff you could sell it would not be a bad business, and a tax advantage, I don't think I can make a go of it.

Dale

Thank you for the valuable information on your site about Amway/Quixtar.

I have nothing against the company, but was disappointed that the person who tried to recruit me for a "web-based franchise" business opportunity to make "passive income" did not disclose his affiliation with them. It was only after I went to the Britt Worldwide website (www.bww.com) and noticed (hidden in a footnote) that Tridigital Commerce and Personal Shopping Portal were trademarks of Quixtar Investments, that I put 2+2 together.

When I confronted the individual, he first denied that he was affiliated with Quixtar, and then after admitting that he was with Quixtar, denied that Quixtar had anything to do with Amway. ("The fact that you think Quixtar = Amway shows that you don't understand the business model.") I replied that I understood enough to know that I didn't want to have anything to do with them.

Anyway, thanks for spreading the truth.

I absolutely loved your site. We became skeptical before we got too far along in the business, and shortly after, my best friend for years, who got us into the business, lost interest also. We were starting to learn that when we first "saw the plan" a lot of it was mostly lies (I would still like to see these wholesale prices) I would love so much to be able to send this url to the entire upline...see how many of them would actually take the time to read it, or to see how many of them have been brainwashed to the point where they wouldn't read it.

I am glad I found the site though. Wish I would have taken your research advise before I registered.

We have learned, the only time you hear from upline is

1. when it is time to fork out money for another function.

2. when it is the last day of the month, and they want you to place an order.

Its kinda sad and pathetic if you ask me.

Have a wonderful day!

Take care! God bless!

I did not like the idea of becoming involved with Quixtar. Nothing that was being explained to me made sense. I got the impression that the people that became involved with Quixtar we all looking for a sense of belonging. I finally explained that I was not interested. At that point, another IBO was brought in to set some of my fears aside. None of my questions were
answered. I took this as an opportunity to ask if Quixtar was in anyway affiliated with Amway and the answer that I received was no. This business has given me a sick feeling from the start and I would like some real answers about it.

Thank you
Ciara

i won't waste much of your time, but I just wanted to say that your Amquix site is a real eye-opener. I recently became a buyer or Quixtar products, but refuse to sell any.

I am signed up as a member. I haven't ordered yet but I am curious to see how well it functions. The main reason that I refuse to sell is that I don't want to subject my friends to the same BS that I was fed initially, as well as the cult atmosphere about the whole thing. After comparing some of the products online, I found that Quixtar was cheaper on some items from the partner stores. That's why I chose to become a member. In a sentence, I wouldn't feel right perpetuating the system.

Thank you for putting in the hard work on your site.

Andy

Scott,Scott,Scott,

You must be very upset about your life. How do you think that every IBO in the AMY/Quixtar organization got to be as big as they are today???? Duhh, they all started out from scratch.. I could tell from your website that you thought AMway and Quixtar was some sort of lottery ticket or a get rich quick scheme. You were wrong, very wrong. You failed man and i feel sorry for you. Stop trashing Quixtar and give people a chance. You're a very greedy human being by destroying peoples hope for a better life.

Please write me back soon.

P.S. The plan does work!!!

Eagle Chris.

Would you please do me a favor? I just discovered Planet Feedback at www.planetfeedback.com and they have a link to Amway that goes around all of the difficulties they put you through trying to file a formal complaint against your upline. If everyone who has been burned by Amway would go post a letter there, maybe it would help. I'm going to make this request of every reality-based Amway site I can find. Thanks for the great site.

I absolutely loved your site. We became skeptical before we got too far along in the business, and shortly after, my best friend for years, who got us into the business, lost interest also. We were starting to learn that when we first "saw the plan" a lot of it was mostly lies (I would still like to see these wholesale prices) I would love so much to be able to send this url to the entire upline...see how many of them would actually take the time to read it, or to see how many of them have been brainwashed to the point where they wouldnt read it.

I am glad I found the site though. Wish I would have taken your research advise before I registered.

We have learned, the only time you hear from upline is

1. when it is time to fork out money for another function.

2. when it is the last day of the month, and they want you to place an order.

Its kinda sad and pathetic if you ask me.

Have a wonderful day!

Hi Sean,

Thanks for writing. I'll try to answer each point below your paragraphs.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:56:52 -0700 "Sean Winzer" <swinzer@wwdb.org> writes:

Scott,

My name is Sean and my wife and I have been an IBO for almost four years. I stumbled across you site by accident when finding the link for WWDB - non-profit organization?. I spent about an hour and a half to two hours on your site so I obviously didn't get a chance to read everything word for word exactly so some of the items I am going to discuss may already be covered. Anyway, I have some suggestions and comments.

1. About WWDB being non-profit - My wife and I have never heard this, either on tape or by any of the leaders in Worldwide. My understanding is that it is a good thing to become a diamond in WWDB because at that point you would be able to share in the profits, since the diamonds are part owners of the system company. As you know, this is a people business and information can get switched around (ever play that game in elementary school where one person starts by saying a descriptive sentence and the next person needs to repeat it and this goes on around the class? What is the end result? The last person's sentence is completely different than when it started). Also if you get a couple of people who build big organizations and who, unfortunately, become mis-informed and pass bad information downline, you end up with lots of mis-informed people (now don't use this last statement to say that all people in Quixtar or Amway are mis-informed - obviously this plan works for the people who work it properly - there is proof of that).

2. When you are talking about the small amount of income made per month by "active" IBO is only $88, I don't dispute this. This is a number that came directly from the Corporation. It is printed on the form called SA-4400, which as an IBO showing the plan, we are required to give this to our prospect. You may have noticed that I put active in quotation marks. What I didn't see on your site is the definition of what an "active" IBO is. This definition is also from the SA-4400, which came be found on the Quixtar site: "Active" IBOs: An independent survey of participants in the Independent Business Ownership Plan was conducted between April 1994 and March 1995 to determine sales figures for "active" IBOs.* For this survey, an "active" IBO was one who attempted to make a retail sale, or presented the Independent Business Ownership Plan, or received bonus money, or attended a company or IBO meeting in the month surveyed. *Approximately 41% of all IBOs of record were found to be "Active." Now, this is interesting. During this survey, if you sold a toothbrush for $0.30 profit and that was all you did, you would be considered an "active" IBO. That kind of hurts that average. Even worse, if you attended a meeting (no profit) you would be considered an "active" IBO. This survey was also done several years ago. In my opinion, that average has probably gone down because there are more people getting in and doing nothing with there business and thus bringing the average. If you signup for MCI right after you register and did nothing else, you will get a bonus for that first month - small but an "active" IBO qualifier all the same.

Scott: On my main page I basically defined anyone active as those who spent money promoting the business. I used $1,000/year as the threshold and assumed 20% spent this. There is an easy way to see how accurate this figure is in your group. How many people are in your group? How many are participating in some form of the system? How much bonus was paid in your group? From these easy to get figures we can see how close I am in my estimate of $1600/year gross profit. (without retail markup).

Sean: I understand your numbers, but the case is if you are going to quote Amway / Quixtar, please show their defination as well. An "active" IBO doesn't have to spend money promoting their business. A business presentation is free. No money out or no money in.

3. It seems that you downplay the importance of goals and dreams. This is fine if you don't want to meet your full potential. You might say that you can reach full potential in a job. I beg to differ. What is your drive at work? To make an income. Okay. Unless you are extremely lucky, are you ever paid what you are worth? If you weren't paid, would you still go? I say people who work have at least one goal - to make money to so they can exist in an economic world. This is a puny dream. I have a couple of things to say about this. 1) No dream or goal - no reason to grow and advance (unless the whip is cracking, if you know what I mean). There just isn't any motivation to advance, and 2) there is nothing to aim for (in basketball there is the basket, soccer and hockey there is a goal, archery there is a target). Please don't steal people's goals and dreams by bashing a quality corporation and opportunity.

Scott: You never debated why the opportunity is a quality one. I debate in my site that IBOs productivity is less than in their current occupations. The only reason to play the game is to participate in the pyramided compensation plan. You pyramid subnormal wages so a few can make big bucks. On the whole the group would be better off working overtime in their current occupations.

Sean: Of course productivity for IBO's is less initially than a job. This is the basis of duplication. If you offered someone $10,000 a month or a penny doubled every month, people who don't understand duplication would choose $10,000 a month. They would be happy for the first 20 or so months but by the end of 30 months, the $10,000 /month person would have $300,000; the "penny doubled every month" person would have over $10,000,000 and their income would continue to grow. Add to this the lack of security in jobs now days, with downsizing of corporations, and compare this to a recurring income that can be created through this business, how in the long run could working overtime and being away from your family be a better deal.

4. You say that this opportunity is all about selling and not everyone can sell. This point will segway into my next couple of points. It is all about point of view. Yes, there is selling involved, I won't dispute that. But is it door-to-door selling or like selling insurance policies, no. It is a retail business model based on the concept of duplication. If we sell anything up front, it is ourselves. People's own development (self esteem, appearance, business management, etc.) is what makes them successful in this business. We contact people initially to show them that they have options other than working for the next 40 years. When we show the plan, we show them the advantages of owning their own business and encourage them to become an IBO. If they say no to this, we encourage them to become a member (wholesale customer). If they say no to this, then we encourage them to become a client (retail customer). If the say no to this, then we move on but if they say yes, then we have a retail customer and we try to give them not only quality products but great service as well. So you see, we don't go out to find just retail customers. Our goal is to find people who want to be in business with us. The sales of our products just happen in the course of building our network of consumers.

Scott: I think it is clear mathematically that if no one has retail customers, the system cost will exceed the profit derived from each person's self consumption. How many members have you signed up? How many clients. How many IBOs are in your downline. If you have a nice retail business, we have nothing to argue about.

Sean: I didn't think we were arguing. Obviously - no retail customers, less profit. All I said is that our focus isn't on retail. Retail happens by showing the business plan as I explained in my points 5 & 6.

5. You have stated that the retail aspect is not followed or addressed and because of that this business model is a negative profit model. You have quoted leaders on their tapes. Leaders like Ron Puryear and Greg Duncan. I think it is funny that I didn't see any quotes from tapes like "Maximizing your Profitability" Greg Duncan and "Legitimizing your Business" Ron Puryear which talk about the importance of retail customers and that they are required to have a legal business. There are also tapes and videos that teach how to market the various product lines. And my uplines have always offered to help us create a retail client base by teaching us how to do clinics. We should go back up to the end of my first point - This is a people business, different lines of sponsorship will teach different things. I think retailing is adequately addressed to the people willing to listen to what is being taught.

6. I got the impression that you think support systems are just a money vacuum that steals away all of your profit. I believe the systems are set up to help you build the business easier and faster if they are utilized correctly. How else would you be able get the information about retailing in step 5 without plugging into the system? I didn't see you touch on the fact that these tools are tax deductible. True, this money could be used to stimulate the economy elsewhere but if you were going into a career in computers you would need to go to school and spend a lot of $$$ for the specialized knowledge. The "systems" should be seen a schools. The books, functions, tapes, and videos are all geared at teaching how to build the business or to encourage you to build the business. I've said before that this is a people business and to build it you need people skills. Obviously not everyone has these so there are tapes and books available to help these skills be developed.

Scott: I state many lines of sponsorship do not stress retail sales. I say that people should research the various lines of sponsorship. WWDB is not the only line of sponsorship out there. I believe that without the system money most diamonds would not find the product business profitable enough to continue on. The money generated from the product business will not even support the costs of promotion, in my opinion. Just add up how much your group spends on the business ad compare it to what their gross profit was. If you have retail sales you might actually show a profit for the group.

Sean: It may be that diamonds and above get monies from their systems, but why is this wrong (at least for businesses who built this legally). They put their time in to develop a network of consumers to reach their level. They should be compensated for their teaching that is put on tape and spoken during seminars. People (not in the business) who give seminars on success get compensated (at probably more per hour) and the public or businesses get raped at the entrance for ticket prices. WWDB, at least, keeps the costs down. This is done by profit on system products. This also includes compensation for people winning different incentive contest which are put on by WWDB.

7. You talk about false profits because IBOs buy products at wholesale and then put the retail cost into their bank account. Let me ask you a question. If you owned a grocery store and you were to shop there - would you pay wholesale or retail for your products? Isn't that stealing from your profits. Your remark about IBOs should pay themselves double the retail price to show a greater profit was ridiculous. I know we have never been taught to do something like that! Our business is a separate entity from our household, even though we run it from our home. Therefore we treat it as a store and hence pay retail for our products we use for personal use. I don't see any false profit in that at all.

Why should you pay retail to yourself for something your members get at wholesale for $10/year? I would think that since a membership is so cheap the real market price for Quixtar/Amway products is the wholesale price. If you want to pay above market prices for you stuff that is your business. It makes no sense to me.

Sean: I don't think I would shop at your grocery store. By selling out to Wal-mart for saving $0.05 a can for tuna, I would get the impression that you are using other people to make you money and that you have no faith in your own tuna. Also, instead of your store making any profit from your purchase it made $0.00. A book you might want to look at is Pro-sumer Power. Regarding the tax problems, what about the wash from tax advantages of owning your own business?

We try to teach people (members & IBOs) a way to save money. Due to concentration content of our products, when compared to like products, the comparison of retail to retail is equal. We teach the buy at wholesale reimbursing at retail as a (let's call it "Forced savings plan"). By doing this, wouldn't it be nice to have extra cash for a vacation. Statistics show that people don't have savings accounts (at least not with balances in them). Why not theach this if the people are willing to listen. It is good advice for both the member and IBO.

8. Regarding the "New Plan". Some of the basics of you plan look good but there are too many restrictions and can get a little confusing with "Ppv, Rpv, ISBB, ISB, BV". Granted your 300Rpv quota to receive a bonus would increase profitability but it is against what this opportunity was created for. All people deserve to be able to build this business regardless of the level of development they are at. The 100 pv bonus is a confidence builder for people who might not be overly confident. There is something that comes to mind here: K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Silly (or any other word you would like to put as the last one)). The IBO business plan is very simple (6-4-2). Everyone does 100pv. Then you have proper volume for Platinum. I can't get in depth with this but we teach a different plan, approved by Quixtar, which uses higher PV volume. There are also other structure goals which gear for faster growth. You will need to call Worldwide for this information. I would like to discuss duplication here as well. You are aware that a penny double everyday will be over $10,000,000.00 by the end of a 30 day month (you can do the math {1*2=2, 2*2=4, etc.}) We teach people to do the same as we do (granted true duplication doesn't really exist but even partial duplication in the 6-4-2 model is pretty good). There is a different type of duplication which comes into play here as well. Because duplication is taught, we know that we can duplicate what our upline has done by doing what they have done. In other words, I was sponsored by my upline so if I do the same thing he did to sponsor me then I can sponsor someone. Same thing goes for pin levels.

Scott: The business was designed to be a sales organization not a pyramiding scheme. If you want to make it easy so everyone can pyamid by not having sales be my guest. Most everyone will lose money if they use the system too. Don't forget you duplicate expenses as well. That is the failure of the duplication theory in Amway/Quixtar. Every one will be duplicating more expenses than their purchases generate in gross profit. That is the whole point of my site!

Sean: Please refer to my point #4. Even by building a "pryamid" we still stress volume. If a product is bought (by IBO, Member, or client), isn't volume created? Let's put it this way, if volume is created, doesn't that mean a product had to be sold? You see, we are still building a business as a sales organization. This is different because it is not like a traditional business model (no store or route). I say, if people follow what is taught on the tapes and at the seminars, they won't lose money (in the long run) but will grow very fast to a profit level.

9. As for disclosing everything during the business plan. You wouldn't be able to sell water to a man in the desert if you did that. Instead of an hour to hour and half, the plan would last seven to eight hours. The plan is just a glimpse of what can be. We are required to follow the information in the SA-4400. If someone decides to become involved, they receive the rules of conduct and if there are any questions about it, that is what the systems are for (they can either ask upline or call the corporation). That are what follow up meetings and nuts and bolts meetings are for.

Scott, I sincerely hope that you put some of this in your web-site, especially the definition of "active" IBO. (I feel strongly about this definition being in you site. My personal opinion is that by giving partial information is the same as giving mis-information as you accuse most IBOs of doing) I agree that people should have the right to check into something before getting involved but make sure you put complete information instead of partial. I thought the facts you put on your site are good as well but most of the time only have one side or interpretation, yours. To keep you site from being a negative Quixtar / Amway, like you say it isn't, you should try to get the corporation's interpretations on your facts. I don't want to be insulting, but by not having both sides on your site, you are nothing more than dream stealing, negative person who darkens the future of every excited person who decides not to build the business after visiting your site.

Sean

PS I have a question. Were you ever involved in the business? With what organization? How long? Just curious.

Scott: I had to buy a kit just to get more information. I was never active. I thought it was pretty shabby that I could not get the information I wanted without having to buy a kit. It was the Florence line. Please answer my questions above and this one. In your four years in the business have you ever reported a profit on your taxes? If so what is the cumulative profit over the four years?

Sean: Scott, I have replied to you questions as in depth as I am allowed to. I am un-willing to get into what I have done financially in the business because 1) it is my personal business and 2) I don't want to violate any of the rules Quixtar and WWDB have placed regarding disclosure of information via the internet. I will be interested in hearing a reply to this, my last e-mail to you. Why will this be my last? Because I have gotten off my chest what was there and I don't want to put myself in a position of being repermanded from the corporation. I also don't wish to expend anymore energy towards this. I take away from what should going into the building of my business. I wish you luck with your website. I think you are very intelligent but are looking at this opportunity from the wrong perspective. If you used this energy toward building a business like this, you could be extremely rich. Anyway, I hope you have gotten a glimpse of this opportunity from my perspective.

May the Dream Live On,

Sean

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:54:29 -0700 "Sean Winzer" <swinzer@***.org>writes:

Scott,

I know that I told you my last e-mail would be my last but I just had to respond. If you think resorting to name calling will bring me into an arguement with you or get me to disclose my personal information you are sadly mistaken. Obviously buying a kit made you an expert on this business. I noticed that you declined to respond to any of the points I brought up. They must have made sense to you. You must have agreed with my statement about owning a business is the best way to retire free and not the job. you are so anti- Amway/Quixtar that I encourage you to buy a McDonald's franchise, put all of that capital up front and say you are making a profit in the first few years (or is the up front costs not a loss of money?). Whoops, I think the startup costs are called an "investment". Or do you think that what Ray Crock set up is a pyramid

scheme as well? By the way, don't forget to pay yourself for the 60+ hours you will spend at your new franchise after you start it. What? Overhead as well. OOOPS. Must be a lot of money going out there too. Hamburger university to learn the secret sauce and how to run a resturant correctly. Is there teaching there? Sounds like Mcdonalds has a system

too. I am sorry to say that owning your own business costs money. Let's put it this way, if I have $3,500 in system costs a year, it would take me 50+ years just to equal the initial "investment" to own most franchises (which, by the way, ranchises have the best success rate in businesses) . You must have a job not to know this. It is a shame that you are so narrow minded not to compare this to a traditional business and see the differences. There is just too much proof in WDB for success if people follow the system as it is laid out for you to sway me from doing this. But think what you want (it is till America). In your eyes, anything a dreamer says will be wrong, incorrect, a cop out, etc.(especially one in this business). It is a shame how an overnight expert on this business can affect the views of people, not as brillant as he, before they even get a chance to see the whole picture. I don't like doing damage control but I'll be sure to point out my counter points in these e-mails to anyone I show the plan to that have visited your site.

Sean

PS. I hope that you don't see something wrong with me using an anology with McDonalds corporation to prove that businesses start in the negative.

Where were you back in 1991?! After four years we learned that "The Dream" is actually "A Nightmare"! More of a cult than a business. Our experience was that unless you did EXACTLY what you were told, including how to raise your kids and spend everything you made, then you could forget any upline support. Period. We were at the 4/6000 pv level when we finally realized/admitted the truth. I only wish that we could regain the time lost with our friends that we discarded due to the brainwashing we received. By the way our line of sponsorship was: Yager, Gooch, Krazit, Rivard, Adamczyk.

Keep fighting the good fight.

First I would like to commend you on the effort put into making your site. However, I have some differing views and a few questions. I understand that you are probably overwhelmed with e-mails and I don't expect a personal reply. Although, if you truly intend to maintain objectivity on your site, I assume that you will post this e-mail as well as your answers.

You state that there are lines of sponsorship that are less than virtuous. Why aren't you pointing out those lines of sponsorship instead of bashing Quixtar as a whole? Has it occurred to you that those practices will continue until someone complains to the corporation enough to give those complaints credibility? Please accept my apologies in advance if any sarcasm was inferred. None was intended.

You imply that Quixtar is a wholesale buying club and quote Rich DeVoss as saying that "Wholesale buying clubs are illegal." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that statement was made quite some time ago. If that statement still applies, how do you explain the existence of Sam's Wholesale Club (paid membership required to purchase products and take advantage of incentives-much like Quixtar's member program)? If that statement is no longer applicable, why is it included on your website? Retail customers are acquired in the form of Clients and Members and customer acquisition is a product of "showing the plan." Why? Not everyone sees this as a business opportunity, but many people are interested in at least one item from the web-site. Those people become retail customers that are serviced through the web-site, which minimizes the amount of time I spend in acquiring retail customers.

You also state that you performed your own cost per use analysis on the cleaning products found on the Quixtar website. I was initially going to say that you did not include the data, but after a little more digging, I found it. You are correct in stating that gram for gram, ounce for ounce, etc. that these products are more expensive. However, what you did not include in your equation is cost versus effectiveness. Below is a cost comparison of SA-8 and Tide. At $17.80 per box, SA-8 is $2.70 per pound versus Tide's $7.44 at $1.37 per pound. I don't buy laundry soap because I want soap. I buy it because I want clean clothes. As a single male, I do 2 loads of laundry per week. Using the cost per use derived below, I am going to spend $53.04 on Tide in one year and $21.84 on SA-8 in one year. In reality, because I can't buy partial boxes, I am going to spend $35.60 on 2 boxes of SA-8 and $59.52 on 8 boxes of Tide. If you do these cost per use studies and cost versus effectiveness studies across the board, you will find that most of these products outperform competing products by a substantial margin (excluding make-up - I don't wear it, I don't market it, so I can't make any statements about it).

Example:

SA-8 Laundry Detergent (Powder) 6.60lb Box $17.80 www.quixtar.com (IBO Price)

1 Usage Unit = 1.25 oz.

Total Usage Units per Box = 84.48

Cost Per Use = $0.21

Let's check the math: 0.21*84.48=17.7408 (rounding error from converting pounds to ounces as listed on the product)

If we change the equation to include the suggested retail price ($21.40), we have a cost per use of $0.25 -- still extremely competitive.

Tide Laundry Detergent (Powder) 5.43lb Box $7.44 H-E-B Ayers & S.P.I.D. Corpus Christi, TX

1 Usage Unit = 6.00 oz.

Total Usage Units per Box = 14.48

Cost Per Use = $0.51

Let's check the math: 0.51*14.48=7.384 (rounding error from converting pounds to ounces as listed on the product)

Conclusion:

On a cost per use basis, SA-8 outperforms Tide by 41.17%.

Note: I did not include shipping costs for the SA-8 calculations nor did I include the cost of gas, time, and vehicle "wear & tear" for the Tide Calculations. I did not include sales tax for either equation. Usage units are taken from manufacturers' recommendations.

Thanks for your time.

Steve Siedentop Corpus Christi, TX

Scott,

I find your site most informative. I recently became an IBO but have my roots firmly planted in my faith as well my own integrity. As I do a price comparison I find that I can win on certain products but not on others. But I aslo think you miscatorigize Quixtar. Quixtar is no more unsound financially or ethically as other buisnesses. I can go down to my local Walmart and find people who don't have integrity etc. I also agree it is about selling the dream, is that so bad? I believe your negative comments printed by visitors is not fairly balanced by positives. Why not have a page of positive comments by those who ethically represent the buisness? I think more info on the actual prices on Quixtar would be helpful. As I do my research I am finding that I can save money and time as if I would shop on any other retail website or virtual mall. All in all your site is informative and helpful and I shall weigh all your information with personal experience. I'm no dummy, if I see a negative slant to any of this I will exit immediately and chalk it up to a lesson learned , thanks for the info.

Paul

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:34:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) "Richard Allen" <eagle12@***> writes:

Mr. Larsen, please direct me to the portion of your report/analysis that covers the issue of CORE.

Thanks,

Richard Allen

On Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:22:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) "Richard Allen" <eagle12@***> writes:

Mr. Larsen, thanks for your response. It is interesting that your site purports to be an attempt to help people evaluate the business opportunity but leaves out the primary, basic, fundamental element that is necessary to succeed in achieving a viable business. Perhaps I'm wrong but my evaluation of your site is that you've failed to be thorough regarding that issue.

Dear Scott,
My name is Mike and I just wanted to say thank you for the eye opening information that I found on your website. I was once an Amway IBO who found out the hard way that "The Business" and "The Dream" that they profess to be so great, is nothing more than a good sales pitch with some very well thought out and well planned campaign to "LURE" in new prospects. I was currently introduced to a new business opportunity by, get this, my physical therapist I was going to for a neck and shoulder injury. During his sales pitch about all the wonderful opportunities to make big money with little work, I told him that it sounded a lot like the AMWAY scheme that I got into back in 1990. He said, oh no, this isn't Amway, Amway is no longer in business in this country. I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and go to his "Presentation" at his house and there were a few others there as well. One of them made the comment that he just made the "Diamond Level Status" in the business and I knew right then and there what I had gotten myself into. Thank God for the expressions, "Experience is the best teacher" and "I learn from my mistakes".......lol. At the end of the presentation, the Diamond Level "Salesman" brought out some sample products, and to my great surprise (not really surprised at all) one of the products had Amway written on it. The business was presented as Quixtar and brittworldwide as their support group. Because it sounded so much like Amway and the fact of the Amway product introduced at the presentation, I decided to do a little investigative research into this company, (which is what led me to your site) as well as other sites also relating to this company and it's topics.
I couldn't believe how this guy just so blatantly lied to me when I asked if it was affiliated with Amway in any way. Unless of course he had been as ill informed as I was back in 1990. I am undecided as to whether I want to go to this "Seminar" they invited us to next week. The temptation to go and ask some "very point blank questions about their business and it's statistics" is so overwhelming that I can hardly contain myself from getting a little revenge for the all of the lies and misleading they did to me back in 1990 and once again this time. I think the only thing that might be able to stop me from doing so would be, the quality of care I might receive at my next physical therapy session........lol. Sorry for the sense of humor I am displaying, does it show my disappointment and aggravation in any way?
Anyway, I would like to thank you again for your website, and I hope that you don't mind if I direct others to it as well, so that they can get the "REAL TRUTH" before they make any hasty decisions. They might not be blessed enough to know from BAD experience as I was in this case. Again THANK YOU and hope that I may hear from you in reply to this letter.

Dear Scott,
I enjoyed going through your website and seeing the math behind Amway, Although I have never personally become involved I started to have concerns about one of my closest friends and their relationship with Amway.

My best friend and husband got sucked into Amway (the second time around) and have been in WWDB for 10 years now. They have not dropped their friends but we see them much less since they decided to rejoin. Our family lived in another state for 10 years and although we remained in contact hadn't been to their home in years. When we had an opportunity to move back to our home state, we got together with them for a little party at their house and were absolutely shocked at their lifestyle. It wasn't grand, the way many in Amway would claim 10 years of work in "the business" will produce, and it was depressing! There had been virtually no home improvements other than a bathroom remodel. The stereo was on bricks and boards (we are 40 years old--not college kids, anymore), no new furniture other than a couch purchased years ago, the baby boy and girl had to share a bedroom. I could go on and on. I wasn't looking for them to have a BMW or a new mansion but usually in 10 years. Even if you are not a materialistic person, you will have some outward sign that you have progressed since your twenties. Example: You will be operating a safe vehicle for your children, not something to just get you around like when you were 19. I am genuinely concerned for them.

I have been researching Amway on the web to learn more about them and I am very disturbed at what I have encountered. I had no knowledge of the cult aspects of this insidious business. By the way, I think you are smart to let others address this aspect and to concentrate on what seems to be your forte, which is the business side. Then people searching for facts about Amway can read about the cult side from people with expertise in that field and the business side (the facts and figures only) if they come to your site.

One of the hardest things for people, the ones outside of Amway, to grasp is that someone would run a business and not keep track of their expenses and expenditures. Only their "profits" and bonus checks. Although seems ludicrous, that's what many people in Amway are doing. My friends included. I think when people accuse websites like yours of exaggerating facts and figures it's because many of us have a hard time believing that a family in Amway can be losing literally tens of thousands of dollars. We can make a fairly accurate estimate of the losses of our friends because our husbands are in the same field with company vehicles and similar salaries. I think our friends have lost (conservatively) between $40,000-$50,000. Mainly because they don't keep track of expenses between the tapes, rallies, books, etc.

I am in fear for their situation. What if they don't have any retirement saved? What will happen to their children? We tried to talk to them in the very beginning very candidly but it didn't stop them. I debated on giving them info that I obtained off the web but decided against it. I see the programmed responses and although my friend is probably not as sucked in as her husband, I believe by telling her I may be putting her marriage in jeopardy because if she comes out of the fog she will be put in the unfortunate situation of realizing she is married to an Ambot. She will then be forced to choose and she doesn't seem to have much confidence in herself. She would be too afraid to leave him. Many things you wrote resonated with me but the one that I really could identify with was your being touched by the situation of the one spouse who just will not give up Amway. It reminds me too much of The Stepford Wives or Rosemary's Baby. I believe Ira Levin wrote those books knowing that the fear of watching someone you love turn into someone you don't recognize is truly a terrifying one.

Of course, I find myself going on quite a bit just like many other letters you probably receive. I'm sorry I never even checked to see how current this site is. I'm thinking it's also possible you don't even have the same depth of feeling about Amway that you did when you started the site. But you are helping all of us who try to understand this cult. I know the experts don't classify it as one (although they will list similarities) but I do. Thank you for the time you spent, you can be sure that you have helped a lot of people. I won't sign my name because I don't want to ruin a friendship if the people I care about would run across this letter in any way. I hope they and others who are trapped in this scheme will find their way out, maybe through sites like yours. Thank you, Scott.

Scott, I just wanted to commend and thank you for the work you have done in putting your site together. Having been in the business for two years, I can safely say that I have had enough experience to concur with many of your conclusions on Amquix; however I don't agree with everything. They are all really trivial anyway, so there is no point in splitting hairs. But some things you comment on like the pressure to buy tools, contacting especially and the like made me kind of laugh at how on point you were. There are many glaring discrepancies between what is said and what actually is. However, there is no doubt that those involved in the systems have in some ways improved their lives. I can say that it was something that I will regard as an essential turning point in my life. It's too bad that the negatives of the system create a dichotomy in my personal perspective of the business. One example I'll state here is when I told someone (a Church brethren, nonetheless!) that I couldn't hang out with him outside the business due to the fact that he was crossline. Since he was new, he seemed very confused. I tried to explain it to him, but he couldn't understand it. Who could blame him? I started to question eventually myself. I look back on it with alot of regret. When I really started to question certain aspects of the business, I started to look for answers. That's when I read up on your site. After thoroughly reviewing it, and looking back on past experiences I feel a bit guilty for trying to recruit others. The "Negative sum game" page was a REAL eye-opener. It was almost like, "Duh, to make a profit in ANY business, you have to sell!" It's the basics of business. The "buy from yourself and teach others to do the same" sounds good, but it is not practical, nor ethical. One page I really like was your page on "If not Amquix, what else is there?" It's true. If people would just learn to curb their spending habits and invest wisely, a lot of people would be better off. I am 21, and about 4 months ago, I started to become more financially literate and conscious of where I spend my money. I realized a lot was going to waste. Anyway, the page makes a good point of stating that there is a life after and instead of Amquix, which is vital for people to understand -especially those in the business that feel that they are losers and will never amount to anything if they leave. Your position of evaluating objectively for the most part adds a lot of credibility to yourself and the site as a whole.

One thing does come to mind though:

"Each IBO would be shown with 50PV instead of 100PV"

I understand your reason for this by saying that the average IBO does less, but then the presentation wouldn't work because the minimum anyone can do to earn a check is to do a 100PV. The lowest percentage is 100 PV=3%. Why is this here?

Dear Scott

I have to say your site is the best one out there. It has answered more questions than my direct sponsor ever could.

The date is important here (7th August 2001) as my upline sponsor said that Quixtar has lost all it's old ways and is longer the same business that Amway once was. Looking at other web sites dedicated to spreading the true message of Quixtar, I'd say it is exactly the same business it just stepped up a gear to appeal to the internet shopper.

I bought into the business two days ago in a moment of madness. My sponsor is a friend and she only bought into the business a few days before me. She was so excited and enthusiastic, that I thought well she's probably asked a lot of questions, and I trust her. I, like many people, got carried away with the thought of having free time and a good home. The same day I signed up, I listed to a tape by Louise Philips and Greg Duncan, and thought great I can make it to. However, whilst still thinking that, I also thought, do I really want to sell a product or as my sponsor put it "you are not selling a product, but a concept and a dream of a better life if you are willing to work for it". Of course, my friend (and she still is a friend) thought that she wasn't selling any products. However, just after I signed up, her sponsor suggested an Artistry party, and inviting friends. Now if that wasn't selling a product, I don't know what is! I also still felt embarrassed about approaching family and friends with the concept. My upline sponsor didn't manage to tell me how many people went diamond, he only mention going platinum.

What also, stuck me was that he had been in the business for five years, and kept saying he didn't follow the plan for the first two years, which is why it took him a while to build up his business. Still three years later and he still hasn't gone platinum, but he's managing to sell the "concept and dream" of going platinum and even diamond to people like my friend and me. I have just informed my friend that I want out, and because she is a friend she understood.

I don't buy the idea that you have to pay to shop somewhere. If I wanted to work on a commission basis, I'd go to work as a sales person where I am at least guaranteed a base salary, or as Quixtar would put it a bucket to bucket pay cheque. I'd rather carry buckets for the rest of my life, and now how much was in them, than build a pipeline which would most likely rust and sprout leaks.

A note to all new and prospective IBO's, if you have any doubt at all then DON'T SIGN OR IF YOU HAVE, THEN RESIGN. You are not a loser for choosing a different path.

Scottie! Hey bud, I appreciate the stellar information you are providing here! I have one question for you...are you a born again believer in Christ? Aloha!

Adam R. Forrey

GoingQ12@AOL.com

Began reading your web site and realized that most of this information is useless and a waste of my time and intellect. You obviously have way to much time on your hands. Why not try going to church and praying as opposed to writing this garbage about innocent people. We are very successful in this business and plan on continuing. I can probably reference you to a few religious sites.

I JUST READ YOUR SO-CALLED INFORMATIVE WEBSITE. HOW DARE YOU TROMP ON PEOPLE'S DREAM. QUIXTAR DIDN'T WORK FOR YOU SO YOU PUT ALL THIS TIME AND ENERGY INTO A NEGATIVE WEBSITE. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN JUSTIFY A WEBSITE SAYING THIS DOESN'T WORK AND LIVE WITH YOURSELF. WALMART HAS A NEGATIVE WEBSITE BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN SAM WALTON'S WIDOW HAS LOST ANY MONEY OR ANY OF THE INVESTORS. THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE IN THEIR DREAMS AND HONESTLY HAVE GOOD INTENTIONS IN HELPING OTHERS ARE THE BACKBONE OF ANY COMPANY. AS FOR BRAINWASHING, WE ARE BRAINWASHED EVERYDAY. SHAME ON YOU FOR THIS DOWNER OF A WEBSITE! AS FAR AS I CAN TELL , YOU RECEIVED YOUR FACTS FROM MOST OF THE QUIXTAR SPEAKERS AND MOST OF IT IS YOUR OPINION. STATE YOUR OPINION BUT DON'T RAIN ON OTHER PEOPLE'S PARADE. I HOPE YOU FIND OTHER PLEASANT THINGS TO DO WITH YOUR TIME IN THE FUTURE.

Thank you very much. Your diligent work saved me and many whom I am going to refer the site a lot of time, money and disappointments. I wasn't going to write but I wanted you to know that your work is making a big, big difference in the lives of others.

Mia

Thanks.

I am not so naive that I thought Quixtar could be anything other than a pyramid scheme. However, I was quite surprised to see Amway was involved! I ended up reading through most of your site due to my interest in cult behavior! :-)

This business was presented to us as www.gboalliance.com (try entering a random seven digit IBO # to gain entry)

What has shocked my wife and I the most is that the person who presented us with this 'opportunity' was a professional whom we had complete faith and trust in. We felt this individual was a model of integrity and wisdom. Now, I can only think that he must have targeted us as people who were hopelessly naive & financial misfits!

After reading through his business proposal - I was struck by the similarities between the sales literature and a typical pyramid-scheme email SPAM. Lots of rhetoric about to finally "achieving financial independence" and "getting out of debt", but no mention AT ALL about what the business model is - or even what products are being discussed!

Certainly no mention at all of Amway. His business card suggests he is a 'Consumer Consultant.' Bleah!

Thanks again.

Sincerely

-- Doug

You are criticizing the wrong things. I will not spend the time here with credentials but by profession (CFP), education (BM & MS), and experience I do certainly equal or exceed what you have shared about yourself on this web site.

I am a consultant to traditional business owners, have a traditional business, as well as being an IBO. 80% of new businesses fail. That is a fact borne out repeatedly by statistics from the Small Business Administration. Some of those who fail learn from their mistakes, try again and again until they succeed. However, most who fail just quit and go back to having a job working for someone else. Some fail in several businesses and then quit and go back to a job.

The impression I have gotten from your site is that you seem to believe that it is a bad thing for people to fail. That is simply not true nor realistic. People that are trying to improve their lot in life are going to fail and it is through their failures that they will make the biggest growth and learn the most important lessons. Though you have heard it many times, it is still true that the only people who don't fail are the ones who don't try.

The villain is not Amway or Quixtar. They are just a manufacturer and distributor, just like Proctor & Gamble or IBM. The villain is not WWDB, INA, ISC, or any other training organization. They are specialized motivational and training companies just like Zig Ziglar, Earl Nightingale, or Tony Robbins.

The people who succeed in the Amway or Quixtar business are the same types of people who succeed in traditional businesses. The people who fail in the Amway or Quixtar business are the same types of people who fail in traditional businesses and for the same reasons! That's it pure and simple.

One thing I have noticed is that people who are successful in traditional businesses generally do not have bad things to say about Amway or Quixtar. Every business on this planet involves sales and any rational thinking human being knows this. What generally differentiates the levels of success between competing businesses is their sales & marketing, not the product itself.

Have you ever tried to operate any business of your own? If so, what was your experience?

Stephen A. Draper

Hi Scott. I've re-written this several times because I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts down. I am NOT in any way, a master of words and I tend to ramble and take a lot of words to get across what I'm trying to get across. I know you are quite busy, but could you please read my story and answer my question at the bottom?

Some background:

I'm a current Quixtar IBO with an upline and a decently sized downline (all in one leg with very little PV and no retailing to speak of). I have never been profitable. I started when I was 18, went on a religious mission (from 19-21), and I'm now 23 (3 years in AmQuix total, lots of business losses on Schedule Cs). I have been on the system Tools/amvox/everything/etc.

Realization dawns:

One night I had the brief thought of going through the "negative" internet sites just to find all their frayed logic, and prove them wrong since I'm an analyst at heart, and I was convinced the AmQuix plan was flawless. So I did. How wrong I found out I was. There were sites that just badmouthed AmQuix and I ignored them. But your site was very well thought-out and very fair. It examined the facts and didn't let emotion, positive or negative influence your reasoning. That's why I read it all. So I set my emotions aside and looked at your points while withholding judgement. I already understood how illegal vs. legal pyramids worked beforehand and only needed my attention directed to the BSM system to see that it was exactly that, and very well-disguised illegal pyramid. I was spending $275/mo in the richest PV products on Quixtar to do my 100PV because I was taught to be loyal. But I was spending $400-$500/mo in BSMs. Realization should have dawned with that point alone. But it didn't until you pointed it out. Once I thought about it, the markup on tapes from $0.60 to $6 is far more than the markup Amway is making on their products, and I'm spending almost double the price of my monthly products in the much more lucrative-for-upline support system per month. Something was wrong. Setting that fact aside for the moment, I thought about your other point: If people follow the "proven success system" exactly, then everyone on the bottom is reporting a loss. Is that "helping" them? And to start making a profit, each IBO must develop a decently sized group. But that would create many MORE individuals at the bottom in the same situation of losing money on the "essential-for-success" support system. I never realized I was hurting peoples' finances. I always wanted to become wealthy, but in a way that served people, not took from them. Anyway, I just cancelled all the BSMs and support I was on after making that realization and my sponsor may be thinking that I'm history.

The dilemma:

I've always wanted to be an Amway diamond since I was a kid. I listened to Amway tapes since I was 8 yrs old. I always thought it was all-legit and I would actually be able to help people, and retire off residuals in the process if I worked hard. Now that all my dreams have almost all crashed, I have one last hope and that's why I'm sending you this e-mail.

The call for help:

Can it be done? I mean, ethically and legitimately done? Can I retail $2k-$3k/mo in profit and teach others to do the same (I know it will be hard work)? While keeping everyone on the bottom profitable from the start, by selling. I also want to change the chain-of-command's plan, ignoring my upline's system and showing my own plan - which would be a sales presentation, with product demos and cost comparisons, looking for customers. And once I'm successful in retailing and making good money, offering the same opportunity to others, to become salesmen, and to teach them what I know. And would there be even a small possibility of me being able to actually help other people build a huge and profitable business, with other profitable retail businesses under them, and under them, etc, until it reached a point that it had enough depth (all of them, profitable retailers) to have it be run by other people who have enough success that they would want to keep the ball rolling and I could retire?

I guess what I'm asking, is the AmQuix opportunity all washed up, or is it only the Yager version that is washed up? Can I do it the way Rich DeVos advises in all your clips (very informative they all were, btw) and actually build a reputable and lucrative business over the years and teach others to make some money the day they sign up, without the unethical BSM pyramid. I'm perfectly willing to work hard and sell and then teach others to do the same. I'm perfectly willing to change the plan (it IS my business after all) and change my approach to: Would you be interested in being a regular Amway customer of mine and I'll give you excellent service? Or: Would you be interested in developing an Amway-product-selling business that takes a lot of hard work and dedication? I never did feel very honest with the curiosity approach anyway and I wanted it to be more direct and honest. After all, they DO need to invest a lot of time and make a huge commitment.

I understand that my results will be less than the deceptive method, but.... so be it. It will just take me more contacts. (Btw, I