Scott,

First, I would like to say that you have a very thorough and rationale business analysis. I am a current Quixtar IBO who has been in the business for two years in the Northeast (U.S.). Unfortunately, I never managed to break 1,000 PV despite many hours of phone calls and "showing-the-plan." I have also tried to make sense of things that just didn't add up when I compared the reality of what I was experiencing with the upline rhetoric regarding the potential (or lack thereof) of "the business." This came to a head last fall when they announced year-end results. I remembered that the corporation (i.e., Amway) reported record sponsoring rates in the Spring of 1999 in preparation for the launch of Quixtar in September 1999. A record number of people getting in must have been followed by a record number of people getting out to achieve the "spectacular" flat growth results for fiscal year 1999/2000. To see if things had improved, I called several people at Amway/Quixtar to try to get sales results for the first half of fiscal year 2000/2001, but nobody had any statistics. If you ask your upline, the response is generally along the lines of "worry more about building your business and going diamond." In addition to lack-luster sales growth, I see few big PINS moving across stage at conventions (Platinum and above). The one exception was last summer (2000) I saw a lot of people go across the stage from Korea as new platinums, emeralds, diamonds, and up. I wonder if that is a relatively new market? I felt I was the only one who viewed the results as less-than-impressive. Of course, I didn't voice my concerns and be branded as negative and too analytical. I just stepped-up my evaluation of the Quixtar business. You don't need an MBA to realize that a return of $143 million to IBOs during fiscal year 1999/2000 means that only 1,400 Quixtar IBOs could have a $100,000 income assuming no upline or downline IBOs make a penny. Since we know this is far from the truth, all you have to know is that the number of Quixtar 6-figure earners is far fewer than that. Of course I am not including the "raping and pilaging" associated with tool money.

Fortunately, I have benefited significantly by working with a successful Q12 (with one...maybe two qualifying legs) who is no doubt in the 2% who are profitable. Unfortunately, he is the only one in his business making a significant (any?) profit - I am not. His training in contacting, sales, and phone skills was excellent. Far better than that received through 90% of the tapes and all of the coventions. On the down side, the only way to "get access" to his training was by buying the tapes, books, and functions.

Since I could never run on belief alone, my inability to develop strong, unquestioning belief probably prevented me from being successful in this business. However, I developed strong technical skills...especially in the areas of contacting. I was not a "closet IBO" or "undercover Quixtar agent." I would put my contacting skills against some of the best in the business because I was taught by an upline Q12 who is phenominal at contacting. I have professionally made thousands of cold-calls and third-party calls (i.e., downline referrals) for this business. If I wanted to expand into a nearby city...I would simply pick up the phone and make cold calls or third-party calls, setup appointments with "qualified" individuals, and show the plan. I focused on households with incomes above 70K. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I did the "unpleasant" parts of the business (which usually refers to contacting) as well as the pleasant parts (which usually refers to those activities that don't involve rejection). In retrospect, it takes more than having a goal (dream), making a committment, contacting prospects, showing the plan, and following up. You have to be able to convey belief through your "demeanor" (for lack of a better word) and inspire others to stay in the business and lose money as long as possible while making them feel good about themselves. Otherwise, you can't put people in this business fast enough to offset IBOs leaving the business no matter how many plans are shown each month.

THE SYSTEM is probably essential for success in the Quixtar "self consumption" business model if you at least want a small chance to succeed. But not for the reasons that most AQMOs suggest. If an IBO does not get on the system, then that IBO is not on the team and will not receive significant (if any) support from the upline. The last thing an upline IBO wants is a successful IBO not on the system who could be "duplicated" by their downline. For my group, the system included 2 weekly tapes and 1 monthy book. I made the mistake of putting some IBOs on 1 weekly tape at their request, but my upline platinum indicated those individuals must be on the complete system (2 tapes/week and 1 book/month) or not at all. And if they chose to not be on the system, then they were not committed and I was told that I couldn't afford to spend much time with them. Upon looking back, I realized that if you were building a tool business, the last thing you wanted was 1 tape/week being duplicated. That would cut your tape business in half.

Your evaluation of business expenses is surprinsingly accurate and somewhat conservative. For the last fiscal year, my revenue and expenses are outlined below:

+ Gross Reciepts $ 350.00 (product income - It doesn't get more pathetic than that...until you look at the expenses!)

+ Other Income $1,500.00 (tools sold downline - I did not profit on tools)

- Advertising/sales/system $4,650.00

- Legal/Professional Svcs $ 100.00

- Office Expenses $ 435.00

- Other Supplies $ 115.00

- Travel $3,300.00 (does not include vehicle milage)

- Meals/Entertainment $ 150.00 (actually spent $300 - only 50% deductible)

- Utilities (phone) $ 630.00 (does not include cell phone charges - probably at least another $600.00)

- Other Expenses $ 330.00 (demonstration products & catalogs)

TOTAL REVENUE = $1,850.00

TOTAL EXPENSES = $9,710.00

PROFIT (LOSS) = ($7,860.00) Net result...a very expensive business lesson!

On the bright side, THE SYSTEM introduced me to authors such as Robert Kiyosaki (Rich Dad-Poor Dad) where the focus was financial literacy. This lead me to read other financial books (not on the approved book list) such as Financial Statement Analysis by Chris Woelfel. Rich Dad-Poor Dad is often referenced when prospecting in the Quixtar business. Ironically, Kiyosaki focuses on financial literacy which is counter to the Yager philosophy, "if the dream is big enough...the facts don't count."

Like you, I have a technical background - (BS/MS). I do not like to quit which makes it difficult for someone like me to draw the line. But as I have learned, an exit strategy should be part of most business plans and investments. I have drawn the line and am exiting the Quixtar self-consumption/networking business. I will take with me improved sales skills, improved leadership skills, better reading habits, and greater financial literacy. These skills will be invested in a traditional business with products & services that truly benefit my customers. My resolve to own my own business is as strong as ever...but I had that before going into Quixtar.

Feel free to post this on your web site if you feel the information is of value. If I can provide information to prospects and borderline IBOs that help them make an intelligent decision about the Amway/Quixtar business, then I can add "public service" to the list of personal benefits in the above paragraph. Since I spent a ton of money, I want to feel good about as many things as possible and get the "most" for the money spent! That's pretty lame but what else am I going to say?

Sincerely,

"Happily Inactive and much wiser IBO"

Thank you for your site, I'm sure you get that a lot. Hey been in it for about a year and a half, For the past year it has been eating at me that the number when I was showing the plan just didn't add up. One week ago we told our upline we are stepping down to the personal use level and getting off standing order. We have been bombarded by pnone calls ever since. Anyway, your site has brought substance to my suspicions that the 6-4-2 pln and PV and BV and price comparisons just don't add up.I want to delve farther into your site and find all I can, a lingering guilt has been with me since I've been thinking about quitting just saying I'm not ood noug or it's my fault. but there are so many issues with the business that that is slowly going away. Your site will help to allay those feelings of guilt. Hey but give the people in World Wide heir credi, they are wonderful people who have wonderful values, I just wish they would stop calling me trying to get me back, their credibility with me is turning downhll uickly, the term used car salesman is creeping into the mind. When I was expected to nuy hundreds of dollars of vitains a month to meet PV requirements (vitamins which I never took beyond Centrum every morning) something was wrong, Now a year and a half later I shudder to think of the money I spent but oh well it is my responsibility to make my own choices, but you do have a great site, One I will be visiting quite frequently.

ROB

Hey scott, Rob here, emiled you yesterday

Just wanted to tell you that the 6 4 2 plan is turning into the you me 6-3. No longer are they encouraging you to do just 100 pv they are encouraging you to do 300 pv a month. In fact the 3%bonus 2 100 is going o be gone and now it will be 3% @ 300 pv. I was at FED in Sept and they gave us a breakdown of where pv can be found in a typicla hous eper month, such as 40 pv in laundary room 50 in the kitchen make-up so on. To get this 300 pv you would have to do 170 pv out of your medicine cabinet. What happened? My wife and I couldn't beleive it. I hardly tok vitamins before the biz and now I was expected to spend 400 doalllars a month on them and other things in my cabinet to get to the new lowest level which is 300. I wonder how much debt ou have to go into to get up to that level. Why do I have toall of a sudden buy that many vitamins to get to that golden cow.I'll try to get some more info from my upline n the new 6-3 plan. basiclly that's where the amount of directs income gong up by 10,000 dollars a year. intersting to say the least.

Rob

My friend, I can't thank you enough. I recently joined the whole quixtar fiasco, but shortly afterwards, something in my head told me something wasn't quite right. I talked to a man tonight to try and talk to him about the business and he said he didn't want to have anythign to do with amwayscamway. Then I did a search and found your site. These people are ruthless. They go after everyone. They're in the book stores, Target, hell they're even in Best Buy trying to recruit people! They go to the college here in Fredericksburg and try to recruit college kids. I can't imagine how many kids have droped out of school in search of this dream only to be disapointed down the road when they discovered it was just a huge pile of sugar-coated crap, and that the only people making money in this business were making all of their money off victims like them.

They came at me from the perspective that it would be a good way to pay off medical school. Bah humbug I say! I will build my fortune the old fashioned way thank you very much, via hard work and study. God gave me a brain and I'm going to use it. This is just a giant beast preying on the hopes and dreams of a public still looking for an easy american dream. Thank you for your service to our country! Keep up the good work. I'm going to refer everyone I've ever talked to about this business to your site! I'm so glad that I found this site before I started sinking money into products I didn't want.

I do feel bad however for the people who sponsored me in and have spent so much time talking to me about this business. They're sheep, nothing more. I don't think they realize that this is a scam. I shall inform them, but I'm sure you know how people react when they don't want to hear or realize the truth.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!

Sincerely,

Thomas

Scott,

I can't thank you enough. I'm going to speak out about this scam as much as I possibly can. I can't put the time and effort into a web page like you have because the pre-med program I am in is very intensive, but I'm going to make some fliers and I'd like to put your web site URL on it. I thought I'd ask if it was alright with you first. I also wonder if you know about any lawsuits that amway/quixtar has filed against people who speak out against them? I was seriously thinking about going to the managers of the places that I know they stalk their innocent victims and the president of the college and informing them of the flagrant solicitation that's going on inside their stores and on campus which could possibly harm both places. I can't in good conscience let this go on in my own back yard.

Thanks again,

Thomas

Hello Scott, I have just spent the last hour and a half reading your website, very fascinating.

I was lured into WWDB in 1993 when I was a very young and impressionable 22 years of age. I had big dreams, and this seemed like the easiest way to fulfill them. Early on I went to the functions and ate up the tapes, the thing that got me hook line and sinker was the "honesty and integrity" of the speakers. They all seemed to be Christians and a Christian would never lie. After a year in the system and actually meeting Brad Duncan, I knew that everything I heard from a WWDB stage was virtually the word of God!

Seven years later, only about 13 months ago, I finally realized the truth and left the business. I was the most dedicated distributor there was. I even fought with my parents on many occasions when I was racking up my credit cards to go to Portland, Oregon again for a weekend function. I probably showed 200 plans in my seven years, drove many thousands of miles for meetings and spent every penny I had on tools. The biggest month I ever had, I grossed $278. Because I knew these men would never lie to me, if I kept going, I would be with them one day. It took my upline emerald spilling the beans on the tool profits to finally get me to question what was going on. When I realized that Brad Duncan himself had lied to me, I was shocked and devastated. These people were huge heroes to me and I found out they were liars!

When I got out of the business, I tried to sell the thousand cassette tapes I had accumulated over seven years. (at $10.65 a pop Canadian that's a big ouch!) The crazy thing is, I could not find anyone in the business that would buy $10,000 worth of tools for $100. Every upline said to buy this from me would not be duplicatable. What incredible business advice, do not spend $100 for $10,000 worth of supplies. I eventually had to give the tapes away, much to the upline's dismay.

Over a year later it is hard to believe that I spent seven years fooling myself and putting my life on hold. Where would I be if I had pursued a legitimate career in that time? Who knows? I do know that I can salvage some postitives from this experience. I did become a Christian at a major function. This is a priceless gift that cost me a heck of a lot of money to receive. I did learn sales and positive attitude techniques. Perhaps the most valuable lesson I learned though, is to not put my trust in people without checking them out. I was young and naive and basically grew up believing everything WWDB had told me without really checking it out. I will never be duped like that again.

Keep up the good work exposing the truth, and, perhaps many others will not be hurt in the future.

Daryn

Hi, Scott. Thanks for your quick reply to my email. You asked a couple of questions, here are my responses.

1. Why was I unable to get more people as customers?

There are several reasons. When I initially entered the business, I was told that we didn't have to sell, so, naturally I did not even bother to try. Later on when they told us about the 10 customer rule, I think a combination of me not being convinced of the value (prices too high) so I could not convince the customers of the value, and the customers looked at it as an inconvenient way to buy.

2. How did Brad Duncan specifically lie to me?

At the first major function I attended, a David Shores leadership, Brad Duncan was the guest speaker. Brad Duncan went on a rant about how people question function prices and think that he makes millions off of them. He continued to say that we, the audience, has no idea what it costs to put on a function and we are totally wrong thinking that they make a fortune off of the functions. He made this a very emphatic point, and I re-watched this on the video many times once I had learned the truth. My upline emerald spilled the beans that Brad probably made as much as $20 per person on that function which would be ($20 x 4,000 people) $80,000 for that one weekend alone. I attended other Brad Duncan functions with as many as 14,000 people in attendance. I guess to Brad, this kind of money isn't a fortune. Unfortunately, when I gave away my tapes, this video was among them. I now realize that this would have been a great item to have kept.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask anything else you need. It is very therapeutic to talk about this stuff.

Daryn

Scott I don't know who you are, but thanks for all your hard work and info. on quixtar

We were searching for some info and you provided much!

Teri

Scott,

Your page is quite interesting. I have not yet had time to thoroughly check it out. My wife and I are Quixtar IBOs and have been IBO/Distributors since 1993. We have been "active" by the SA-4400 definition of "active". However, we have not been active in a manner that is close to what it takes to build this business. We have listened to tapes, attended functions, and read books. I personally have not shown the plan for about 6 months.

I have found the books that I have read to be most valuable. I have been complimented many times on my positive attitude. I am sure that the books have helped in my career. I seems the more I read, the more I notice how negative so many people are out there in the so called real world.

Through the books I have learned quite a bit on what it takes to be successful in any endeavor. Be it financial, physical, spiritual, or psychological. To separate yourself from the masses in any endeavor requires hard and smart work, believe, faith, persistence, a willingness to change, and the ability to learn and submit to those who have achieved whatever it is you are trying to achieve. Being teachable is an absolute necessity. I have found that other than showing the plan, not being teachable is the number one reason poeple fail at this business. Accountability, as in a lock of, ranks close behind.

I find it curious. Successful people seem to focus on the dream. I heard Venus Williams just the weekend tell people to get a big dream and don't let anybody steal it (not an exact quote). At work the dream is very rarely talked about. Hmm...

I wonder how many Olympic Gold medalists, got there because they analyzed the time and work requirements. Ran spreadsheets and graphs and made a decision, based on the data, to go for the gold. The dream, the passion, the deep down burn drove EVERY one of them. Had they examined the facts and the odds of making it to the Olympics, much less winning the gold, we would not have an Olympics. Please don’t get me wrong, I am not saying a thorough analysis isn’t important. I am saying that so many of the things we take for granted today were achieved by people who went forward in spite of the odds and against conventional wisdom. America is what it is today, because of the brave few who stood up to the mighty British empire. Less than 2 percent of our then population fought against outrageous odds to make America a county.

Everything begins in the unseen (the dream). Microsoft was first a dream of Bill Gates, long before it was a reality. I work at a company called Hughes Network System. Founded by none other than Howard Hughes, one of Americas great dreamers and a visionaries. Many people called him crazy, many still do. Because of his dream, I and about 60,000 other people have jobs.

If it were not for the dreamers, the risk takers, those who defy conventional wisdom, I shudder to think where this world would be. 80+ percent of all businesses in this country fail. It is the 20 or so percent that succeed that give Americans the number one lifestyle in the world. Don’t quote me on that number, my point is more businesses fail than succeed. At the beginning of the 1900s the were about 300 car manufactures in this country. There are now 3 major companies.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read my rambling.

I would like to write more after I had a chance to review you site.

Stan

Hi Scott,

First I should start by saying thanks as it did save me.

I am software consultant in H1[work visa] which tend to be for 6 years and after which most return to asia some stay.

There are like 1 - 1.5 hundred thousand people entering US alone.

Now this people make a nice amount of money and most plan to go back in a couple of years with saving to start a better life in their country .this as in my experience , are used as a big bait and also that this people havn`t been here along to know about this network and eventually exploited .

I have a cirlce of friends , collegues and aquitances say about 100 , OF them I am the only guy who probabily
took the time for research and more over I found a IBO who helps the H1s by driving them around
,even putting them up in his apartment when they arrive in this country so they are commited to sign up and also force there situation as an example to bring in some new recruit.

I just wanted to show the reality from another angle and hopefully some one will write something on it.
regards
satish

 Scott,

Thanks so very much for doing what you're doing. I wasn't really able to pinpoint the flaws with the Amway System as well as you have here in this site. I can't tell you how much my Father in Law has put a wedge in my marriage because I won't buy in to the World Wide Group. Now I have something to study and fight back with. Wish me luck. I hope I can save him and my marriage.

Anthony

Scott-

Hi, have been looking at your site for about an hour...fantastic! I was in Amway for about a month 5 years ago before I realized the whole deal about support tapes, etc. and bailed. I am a full-time musician and must say that it was very persuasive a few years ago to think about actually MAKING money and not always spending it :-). Unfortunately, Amway could not accommodate my "dreams"- they sell their dream and that becomes the ONLY dream one can have in the business. Unfortunately, the Amway dream is very poor- it is all about consumption and the acquisition of material goods.

There is very little mention of developing yourself as a person, other than developing pseudo-Dale Carnegie people skills. Anyway, my reason for writing is this...

Why are Amway people so fake? In the past month, I have been approached by three folks about a "great business opportunity" or some such nonsense while shopping in conventional stores. The thing is, not one of these folks would have talked to me if it weren't for the fact that they saw me as potential income. Even though I strongly suspected what each one was about,

I gave each a business card (it's always good to get those out there when you're in my line of work) and sure enough, each followed up within a week by phoning me and launching into their spiel. When I told them that I wasn't interested in something that would take me out of music, they each had essentially identical reactions- scoffing about how I wasn't a "dreamer", how I needed to "open my mind", etc., etc. I would posit that I'm more of a dreamer than all of them combined- my dream isn't to make gobs of cash by selling tapes to fools (a narrow-minded dream at best) but to touch people with what I do. I already know that this idea is foreign to most people :-) but what irks me about Amway folks is that a polite rejection inevitably leads to insults! WHY IS THIS? If someone doesn't like my music, what of it?

Do what you want with YOUR LIFE! I'll do what I want with mine! The world is better off with variety! The whole Amway deal is vaguely fascistic (do as I do, think as I think).

Also, an interesting thing to note is that of all the IBO's I knew when I was (briefly) in the business, 90% were much worse off than I was financially, and I make my living playing the piano!(most people can't believe this!) Many of these folks, incidentally, had much higher incomes than me, but all were very status conscious and spent crazy amounts of money on clothing, transportation, housing and so on. My point is that beyond the merits of Amway as business, there is something out-of-joint about Amway as a lifestyle. To be fair, that may be just MY experience with it- I obviously have not had wide-enough experience with it to make such a sweeping judgement. And, like much else in life, I'm sure you get out of it something close to what you put in.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent! I'd be interested to see if you've gotten other feedback along these lines or what your thoughts are on this subject.

Thanks,

Bart

Scott,

A friend sent me the link to your site. I found it to be very informative. What I did expect to find was a single "I hate Amway, and you should to" page, but clearly you have done your homework. I WAS an Amway dist about 5 years ago, wish I would have found your site then! It would have saved me allot of time, money and aggravation!

On the plus side, the products, do work quite well, but not well enough to keep me buying them today.

After briefly reviewing your site, I must agree with you. This particular "business" , (in my onion), is NOT worth anybody's time, money or effort.

I do feel sorry for those who, for whatever reasons, do end up joining this company.

I think the only ones who really profit from all of this activity are the hotel operators who rent the meeting rooms to local distributors!

Clearly, you are an intelligent man who, can objectively compare facts in the real world and arrive at an intelligent conclusion. Thank you for taking so much of your personal time and helping others see the correct results.

Scott, thank you for your time and your honesty.

Sincerely,

Bill B

Scott

I read your discussion with Mr. Carrillo and also read some of your site. I am in the Florence Organization too. I have been involved in the business for two years. I also own a traditional business.

As far as tools go, you need to understand why we have them and where they came from. Dexter Yager started in this business some 35 years ago when there were no tools to use. He started taping people speaking and letting his group listen to the recordings. As his business grew, more demand was put on people wanting recordings to hear. Because he couldn't be with everyone, he had to leave them things to read and listen too. He would buy books from local stores and keep them on hand too. He did all of this because it helped his business grow and his people wanted it.

today, tools are the key to having grow in your business. Not talking about the money side yet, just about the motivation and training. Dexter's son's now own the company that produces the majority of tools worldwide. Now, tapes would still need to be purchased from somewhere, from some store. Whatever company produced those materials would benefit. That's just business. But what Dexter has done is give portions of the profits of the tape sales to certain pin levels in the business. That to me is awesome!! They receive it because they are running the hardest and are compensated for it.

Either the tapes are sold and no one benefits but the company or people running the hardest in the trenches get portions of the profit. Either way, tapes are moved and people get the information they need.

NEED. Do people need the tapes and functions? Well, I'd love to see someone go Diamond or Emerald or Platinum without it. Then they could say it can be done. So far no one has. Don't think we will ever see it.

One thing you mentioned was the high rate of drop out. You know college has that same problem. Funny too is that college advertises that it will bring you a brighter future and make you successful. Let's look at what the majority of grads are doing after graduation. Not many of them are in their chosen field. I think colleges should show the stats and average incomes of their graduations classes. Enrollment would be down. But for those that have a dream and are willing to do whatever it takes can become successful at whatever they chose. Just like Amway. And professors make money off of the sale of tools for their classes. I believe the reason is like you said, people are lazy. They will run like a dog for someone else, but when they call the shots, they sit on the couch an whine. Don't think that will ever change. This business has made me a better person and benefited me in my other business too. You really have no right to judge a business you didn't REALLY participate in. You can look at the stats all day long, but until you get really involved and work your tail off to help your downline become profitable and them thank you everyday, you have no clue about our business. It is like no other business out there. I love it. Sure there are things I don't like. But who likes everything at their business or job anyway.

PRODUCTS-The Amway brand soaps and Nutrilite vitamins are extremely competitive. We used to buy Tide, but now we use SA8. We spend $17 on SA8 and it averages us about 4-5 months. Tide would have run us $25-$30 for the same time frame. I believe that fact speaks for itself. The other cleaners are so concentrated that we always spend the same if not much less for Amway brand soaps than top name brands. We don't tell people to compare our stuff to bargain cleaners.

To finish up, this is a business. Money is made from a compilation of products, services, and tools. I tell my people that and if they would actually read their contract it will tell them some people make money from tools and that they do not have to buy them.

Some people make excuses and some make money. Free Enterprise isn't for everyone. You have to be tough to make it. But when you do, it's great.

Billy

Scott

I came across your site because I did a search on Quixtar. I have had months where I made more than I spent. I haven't gotten my taxes together yet for this year, but it will be close on whether I spent more or made more. And if I spent more than I made, it won't be because of the business plan, it will be because I didn't do the type of job I needed to do in areas of my business. My fault. We have a calculator program we use to show us where we need to focus our efforts to generate the most return. Most don't do what they need to because it is hard and uncomfortable to work through people for people. Called digging depth. The people that make the most money have the widest and deepest legs. We are taught to do it that way, but many don't have the self confidence to do it. Like I said before, everyone was born equal with the right to become unequal. I like it that not a lot of people make it to the higher pins. Shows that work is involved. Like you and I know, it isn't traditional. If people learn to stretch and change they will succeed in this business. If they stay the same, they will not make it. FREE ENTERPRISE.

As far as making enough money to cover tools. You can do it. Maybe not right out of the chute, but given a little time it can be done. Several of my distributors have made a couple of hundred dollars their first check. That covered their tools for their first month. Most people will not do what it takes at first. There is an incubation period. People will not make any real profit during this period. They are learning. When they finally understand how to build this business, they start making money. College is the same way. 4 years or more on faith and no guarantee. Tons of money spent and how many get a return on that right away. We are no different. We work on the penny a day system. Slowly but steadily it will grow.

Also about our prices. I haven't done as much in depth price comparisons as you. We probably are a little more expensive than Wal-Mart , but you have to understand. In our group we don't teach everything is cheaper. Some cheaper, some the same price, and some more expensive than going to the store. What would pay for UPS to bring your stuff to you instead of fighting traffic and dealing with the lines. You must have plenty of free time since you are able to research everything. 7-ll stores charged higher prices for the convenience. That's what we teach in my group. What is your time worth?

Billy

Scott,

I just got laid off from my job about a month ago and received a call from my cousin in Kentucky (a right wing fundamentalist) who wanted to know if I'd be interested in becoming a partner of his in his very profitable E-Commerce business. He said he'd have to come to my house and show me "the plan" to see if I'd "qualify" for his business. He wanted to know if I'd be interested in this business if it didn't require any selling, could be fit in my schedule and cost very little? Of course I said yes and we (my wife and I) would look forward to his visit. Let me tell you one other thing, I hadn't seen this particular cousin of mine in probably 16 years and all of a sudden he wants me to partner with him in this "E-Commerce" business. He comes in the house and we exchange all kinds of talk about our families and the past before he wants to get down to business. He shows us a video (the Buzz video) about the coming age of E-Commerce and that his business is ranked in the top 5 and has no debt and was the largest project ever started by Microsoft Corp. We're really getting pumped up watching this and he shows us a profile book full of millionaires that "his" business has produced doing exactly what he's doing and that we could do if we wanted. He goes over the plan and tells us that if we work hard, we could be making $4,500.00 a month within one year using the 9-6-3 plan he outlined to us. My wife asked him about the products and the price, and he said we should not be concerned about that because we were thinking like consumers instead of business owners. We're in the business to make money and shouldn't be worried about a possible small difference in price, which he said we would make-up for in profit. We told him we'd think about it and would get back to him. He refused to leave until we gave him a date to meet within the next few days. Later we found out that we're never suppose to leave someone's house after we show "the plan" without booking another meeting. So my wife and I agreed to sign up as IBO's and my cousin told us to make out our "list of names" and he'd help us call all these people and help them find there "dreams" and help those dreams come true. Oh yeah, my cousin spent several hours with my wife and I helping us determine what our dreams are. He said if we focused on this dream, that we would automatically become successful in the business. Now my cousin has only been in this business for 9 months and hasn't made a dime due to the cost of the system. He said that was ok, because any business that starts up has cost and it takes awhile to recover this before the big bucks start rolling in.

Well we started calling our friends and family and got the big question "Is this Amway", which we were told to say that it's not really Amway, just the Amway products and that no one ever complained about the products in the past, just the old system. My cousin also told my wife and I that we needed to start buying all the tapes, books, tools and attend "all" the functions in order to be successful. Well I was just laid off as I stated and we were real low on cash flow, but we decided that we better learn to do without some things in order to get our business going, so we got signed up on the book of the month, the weekly tapes, Amvox and even traveled 500 miles to a BBC meeting (business builders conference). Of course the meeting got us all fired up, because the room was full of people who appeared to be very successful and happy. Well we had a lot of trouble booking meetings and my cousin continued to come visit us (he lives 350 miles from our house) and encourage us and tell us what a great job we were doing. We wondered why he said that since we hadn't even shown the plan to anyone who cared. He'd call us on Amvox and "preach" to us about how wonderful it was that we were a part of this great business and how we could all be free in 2 to 5 years if we just focused on our dreams and continued to "show the plan". We tried to stay pumped up, but didn't feel like we were moving very fast, and we also hated telling our friends about this and having them laugh at us and talk down Amway. Then a few days ago, I found your sight, because I thought I needed to find out something about this company that I was all of a sudden working for. I was shocked, and some of the things you point out were exactly the things that were being told to us and were happening. I called my cousin and cancelled his visit here to show the plan to some friends of mine and proceeded to tell him that we had some real problems buying into this system and supporting this business in anyway. Well he was shocked at what we told him and drove all the way here to try and talk us out of it. He said we were throwing away our dream and it hurt him so much to see us do that. Anyway to sum up, we are grateful to you for showing us the "light" and saving us from further financial problems. I would love to hear back from you in the near future

Thanks so much!!

Wayne

Scott

I was in this business for 5 years and did not make any $$$. I went to all the meeting read all the books, attended all the seminars, products were

Ok... I learned a lot about myself and am a better person, but could not simply afford to invest any more time and $$$, am still broke but was even broke in Amway and I believe that there are other ways of making $$$ a comfortable lifestyle that meets my needs and my philosophy... sometimes I felt that were not given the complete truth. I have been given the Amway opp.and have tried it and now I am on to bigger and better things thanks for giving Amway an honest assessment.

I believe there are thousands of people like me that try it honestly and we get no where in an economic sense. I still do believe that whatever I want I can get if I put my mind to it. It does not have to be Amway.

Cal

Thanks a lot for a great page.

I'm getting out ASAP.

I have been in the business for a Month & I tell you it was hard to get 100pv. It is too expensive.

After looking at you page & other ones a found all the information that I needed.

Contacted My "Upline" for more information I told him what i have found is response was that there was a lot of negative people out there he still hasn't meet me whit me to answer all My questions.

I'm Hispanic & the way they are approaching a lot of Hispanic people is telling the that this will be the year for Hispanics (you know Ricky M. Cristina A. etc..). Any ways I wish I could reach all those Hispanic people & let them know all about the Business

Unfortunately a lot of people don't have a Computer with Internet to find all the information.

As to my Upline He supposed to be an old friend from my Hometown. What a friend.

"MYMEXICALI.COM"

HI SCOTT- THIS IS A GREAT SITE. WERE YOU EVER INVOLVED IN THE BUSINESS? WE WERE INVOLVED FOR 6 YEAR S WE HAD BUILT IT TO A 4000 PIN LEVEL. I WALED AWAY A YEAR AGO. ONCE WE FOUND HOW THE MONEY WAS MADE I COULD NOT GO OUT AND TOTALLY DECEIVE PEOPLE. I THINK IT IS INTERESTING HOW YOUR UPLINE TOTALLY LOVE YOU UNTIL YOU STOP GOING TO FUCTIONS. ( OR THEY STOP MAKING MONEY ON YOU). KEEP SPREADING THE INFORMATION, PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW!!!!!!!!! SUSAN

Hey:

Thanks for your site. It is very objective, and does not bash on AmQuix, it really gave me the sober view of the scheme that I needed. I knew something strange was happening and you spelled it out.

I have to show this to my "sponsor".

Chris

Hello scott, I like you have been presented the plan 2x. Once about 3 years ago by the World Wide Group and now by another group...... I did get in this time. This team is about building "depth" then branching a leg and building another leg and so on. They also focus it more on the internet side of things, like your own E-commerce biz. Well ok, I am a Computer programmer and know all about the "net" and E-commerce, I guess I have the same reservations about spending $200 a month to get my 100PV. That is alot of $$$ despite there is only 2 of us...and 2 dogs! :-) I guess what I am trying to get at is, is your data pretty current?? I read your top ten reasons why you didn't get involved. Is that up to date? There is different ways the they all build the biz.

I also am struggling with the fact of "Can I get X amount of people in?" Do I have the skills like my upline? He is a great guy and I respect him alotbut don't know if I have the drive for it. Your site is very helpful and has helped me a lot. From you experiences how many people do you need to get in to break even, lets say $200 per month?? It wouldn't be bad if i could operate it by covering some to most of my buying per month. Yes some of the prices are high, but some are ok. I also do like the products. I guess that's enough of wasting your valuable time and thanks a mil for your information. It has put my mind at ease.

thanks and hope to hear from you,

Clint

Visting your site I had a brief flashback to the summer I spent working for Vector Marketing (Cutco knives) as a sales rep (made it up the "advisor" level in sales commissions ~25% of sales). It was a smaller scale version of what your site describes.

Compared with Amway, it wasn't really that bad - although I was able to go through the system from the perspective of a student living at home (no rent, free food, free car usage) and didn't have to invest more than $140 to get started (for a set of demo knives). Pretty good product - my family had used them for years & I still have my set of knives (and use it). I made ~$1500 in commissions and have a really nice set of knives (won a completion set in a sales contest) for about 120 hours of work (I'm estimating I spent 20 hrs a week for about 6 weeks - I got tired of being "pimped" after that) - netting out to about $12.50 per hour. Which wasn't too bad for an 18 year old during 1992 (when part time jobs were relatively difficult to find).

The comments about senior-level Amway distributors (Diamonds, Emeralds, Platinums) sounds very similar to what my district manger and regional VP used to spout. Cutco was a bit more legit in their sales mix....but most folks still failed. My favorite moment in retrospect was my DM telling my graduating class that we would all sell enough in that weekend ($10,000 each) that we would be able to go to dinner in a fleet of limos....when it's obvious he was pumping up the sheep for the slaughter. I think I was the top rep in the class and I never broke $10,000 in sales for the summer - much less that first weekend. And then there was the big sales push before the regional meeting - they were getting folks to sign up to do $10,000 in sales.....hilarious in retrospect.

But a very, very good training ground - especially for a totally newbie with minimal face-to-face business experience. Most of my gains from the program occured long after I left - when I had to interview for "real" jobs or fight my way up the corporate ladder as a marketing program manager. When I entered the program, I was a very quiet analytical type with pathological shyness (a Classic Meyer's Briggs INTP) - at the end of the summer, I had learned enough about basic selling and relationship skills that I'm comfortable in a sales/client relations role. While there has been a lot of mentoring from managers at my current company along the way (mainly in the areas of subtlety & finesse - Cutco wasn't good for that) - the basic skills of empathic listening, cold-calling, using objection cycles, and solution-based selling proved essential to my career as a marketing manager. You also learn how to recognize organizational BS & hype....very valuable in the long run. And are a LOT more skeptical of recruiter promises after that.

Plus we've got a great set of knives for Thanksgiving :) (Ironically, my girlfriend is also a Cutco veteran - which I never found out until we had been dating for a while & I cooked dinner for her)

Anyhow - great site & you did a really nice job of breaking down the cost/benefit at a distributor level. If most folks did that before joining a MLM as a full time job, they would run away screaming....

Although I do intend to recommend to my kids that they try something like this for a summer for the experience....

John

Scott,

The facts and figures I referred to were such things as the Social Security/Retirement facts and the like in the Britt Worldwide literature we used to show the plan. We were also encouraged to present the 6-4-2 plan as if each level of depth occurred a month apart (i.e. you'd get in one month and do 100 PV, sponsor six the second month and your business would do 700 PV, and so forth), thereby giving the impression that you'd be retired in 4 months. Furthermore, we were told to represent BV:PV ration as 2:1 in the plan, not bothering to tell someone that this is for a few products and most Amway merchandise has a much less favorable ratio. We were instructed to tell people we showed the plan to that the business has no overhead costs. Then we were to encourage them to buy all the support materials, all the while telling them that "tools are tax deductible." Oh, and let's not forget the "save 30% by buying at cost from yourself" number. I've done the math and I arrived at the same conclusions that you did. You don't save on Amway products versus what you're already buying.

While we're at it, let's add to this that we were told that business support materials were strictly voluntary. We were then told not to work with people who weren't on SOT. The common line goes something like this: "If you're just on standing order, you're on minimum wage" (quote from Kanti Gala.) Funny, I thought that Amway was a business about "helping people."

We were instructed to tell people that if they like to sell they can, but if they don't they don't have to. We were never told about the 10 customer rule or any of the other rules regarding retail sales. In other words, it was portrayed as optional. We were occasionally told to hold back PV to put people over the 7500 PV level as well. We were encouraged to buy more stuff than we needed, even waste stuff, so that we could generate more PV.

Finally, we were told that all products carry a 100% money-back guarantee. This is a misrepresentation of the company's policy, because we returned some merchandise after going on warehouse direct and were given vouchers for more merchandise instead of a refund. Also, the vouchers had to be used for product only, not shipping or tax. Of course, we didn't get any credit for the shipping and tax we had originally paid on the merchandise.

In the end, we decided that this was a negative-sum game. We saw our taxes show a loss for two years and our tax advisor strongly advised us against claiming a loss the third year for fear of an audit. We, of course, agreed and promptly decided to flush Amway.

I just signed up as an IBO for Quixtar, but the whole presentation talked about Quixtar. After you become an IBO, it is all about WWDB...That's how all the money is made. The WWG processes are ridiculous, and they talk about it like it's an e-commerce business. Too bad I'm just finishing graduate school with an degree in Management and E-Commerce. I'm looking at other possibilities through Quixtar because I think they have a great business model, but I'm not going to be a part of World Wide. I was blatantly told that WWDB is a non-profit organization that helps you succeed. They should've said that WWDB supplies 90% of your income through tapes, functions, books...etc...Give me a break. Thanks for the website.

Dear Scott:

I wanted to thank you for the information on your website. It has helped me to come to a decision about joining Quixtar that I have been grappling with over the past few weeks. Now, thanks to the information on your site, I will not be joining "the business."

This is how it started for me: I was approached by a nice woman a couple of weeks ago at a local clothing store. She started a conversation with me by saying how cute my baby was. She then asked me if I was working and if I would like to work from home. She said her and her husband just started a new business and were looking to find a couple of people to work with them. I told her I was a legal secretary for 13 years and hadn't worked since I had my second child. She took my number and gave me her "business card." I just thought that maybe I could do some secretarial work from home and make a little extra money to help out with the bills. When she phoned me a few days later she set up a date and time to come to my house with her "business partner". I was taken aback since any job I had interviewed for was done at a place of business, not my home. Being suspicious, I then called her to ask what kind of business this was - she told me that it was an internet-based business affiliated with well-known sites such as Toys R Us and OfficeMax, etc. and then told me that when she and her partner came to my house they would show me some paperwork and would decide where I would fit in - they were looking for 4 or 5 people to work with.

I kept the appointment and they came at 8 p.m. on a Monday evening. My husband sat in and we sat there while her business partner (a platinum) did all the talking and told us about Quixtar and how we could save from 0-30% on products we already use, like toilet paper and toothpaste - he made sure to tell us that all the items sold on Quixtar were "brand name" items. "This business requires no investment" he explained, only a couple of hours of time a week - there was no mention of a start-up kit. He then told us we should go to a seminar in a week or so and he would e-mail the directions to us. We went to the seminar a week later still very skeptical. We weren't impressed - materialism was stressed heavily and we are family and religiously oriented people. I was too nice to say "I'm not interested" to my perspective sponsor who then handed me a Quixtar information packet with a audio cassette. I took it not realizing how this would start a chain of contact between us.
She set up another meeting with me and my husband for the following week. I tried to cancel this meeting by calling her and telling her that I was not interested. I explained how my husband has two jobs - works 12-16 hours a day during the week and sometimes works Saturdays. I also told her that with two kids, I could not run out to "meetings" and seminars as I do not have anyone who can babysit (all of which I figured out that I would have to do based on what I heard at the seminar and using my own common sense). She replied that this was very important for our future and it would only take a couple of hours a week and it would pay off. She explained how she also has two kids around the same age as mine and her husband also works a lot. She told me that her mother lives in the house with her and watches the baby for her when she goes out to meetings. When I told her that I did not have that situation she told me that she and her group could do most of the work in building my business and I wouldn't have to go to meetings or sell anything. I did not believe her - I know that in order to be successful at anything it takes hard work. I then told her that according to the Quixtar brochure the average IBO makes only $88. a month and I was not impressed by that. She responded by telling me that she never made only $88 a month and that that figure includes ALL the IBO's, even the ones who aren't active. She then asked me if the money would help. I said of course any extra money would help. She then said "Where do you see yourself in 10 years?" I said that I'd probably have to go back to work. She said if I started doing Quixtar I wouldn't have to go back to work. She then told me that her "partner" would call me to talk to me.

A meeting was held again a week later, this time she brought a "diamond" partner with her. He told us his success story and left us with a video and then said he would come back in a week. He went on to tell us how we had to make time to go to meetings and make it a priority - this was the exact problem I brought up with the woman a few days before. She said nothing.
The diamond also said something which did not match what the platinum guy told us at our first meeting: he said that we would get up to 45% off on products. My prospective sponsor then left us with yet another tape to listen to and the diamond left us with a video before they left. The diamond came by a week later and dropped off another two video tapes (he didn't stay because my husband told him we were too busy in an effort to get out of this situation). My prospective sponsor came over the week before to show me the on-line site briefly but I did not get a good view of the prices. She then showed me some samples: hand soap, "L.C. wipes" and a tube of toothpaste. I immediately noticed that these were all Amway products - a name which was NEVER mentioned but which I knew from doing some light research on the internet since our first meeting. I also noticed that when she visited Quixtar.com with me as a visitor, she had a lot of trouble accessing anything meaningful (such as prices) but when she entered her IBO numbers, there were no problems. I told her I had the same problem when I tried to view the site as a visitor. I think this is done purposefully so that you do not realize that most of these products are Amway and not what most people would consider "brand name". She showed me one cleaning item (equivalent to Windex) which seemed to be at a decent price (probably the one one like that). Then she showed me the "clearance" and "hot buys" sections - they show both the IBO cost and regular cost. We looked at a jacket on sale for $99. but for an IBO t would only be $69. -- she told me that if a client bought this I would get to keep the $30. I was thinking that I would never do that to anyone I knew - I would end up buying it for them at the lower price - I could never see myself making money off of my friends or family like that. This really bothered me. She also never told me what the cost of the start-up kit is, or any other costs (videos, meetings, etc.). I have to say that they are very nice people - but I always knew in the back of my mind that they were being nice because I was a prospective money-maker for them. However, no one ever told us anything about having to pay to get into meetings, paying for "tools", renewal fees, etc. I find this very upsetting. At the seminar we went to the speaker stressed spending $250. a month as an IBO and getting your partners to do the same. I told her there was no way that we could afford to spend that much a month - she said you could spend whatever you want - $10, $100., etc. I was thinking - "Yeah, if I spend $10. a month I won't get anywhere".

I was very unsure for a few weeks about whether or not this business would be for me - thanks to you I now have the facts and information I need in order to make an informed decision. I will not be joining up.

Keep up the good work!!

--Doris

Scott, wish we read your site last year. Me and my wife Joined Quixtar last Year

We lost $4,000 on this business. We had 14 people in our downline, we are tired of the lies that have to be told to get prospects .I would rather work 30 years at an honest job, make a decent living. Be happy with what I have. We refuse to rip people off. And now our upline doesn't call or visit.

Once we started to complain, they said "we help those who make us a Profit" Go figure, huh? Well anyway I plan to start a bee keeping and pollination company And my wife is going to start a doggie daycare and grooming business. We don't want to be rich, JUST HAPPY. Scott, you have a valuable service.

Sincerely,

Patrick

Dear Mr. Larsen

Thank you for providing such vital information about Quixtar. A friend at work, who is an IBO, recommended Quixtar as a sure fire, easy way to make money. That is if it made any sense. As a matter of fact, I just returned from my first and last Quixtar "seminar". Admittedly, I have NO business experience and the information provided to me answered none of my questions. The individual giving the seminar was flamboyant and full of enthusiasm but his presentation was nothing more than endless repetition of catch phrases, one liners and cute stories but nothing more. Did it give any real insight? No. Did he provide any non biased information and statistics? No. Did they give me any time to think about or evaluate the facts given before being urged to sign? No. I my opinion, is Quixtar simply too good to be true? Absolutely YES!

Thank you again

Scott,

Let me start by saying thank-you. Thank you for taking the time to design, post, update and maintain your website. I too fell victim to the Amway business and was in it for six years before I realized that it was going nowhere. I can't believe how many of my Christmas bonuses I wasted on those stupid "Dream Weekends". I was in the Britt organization and I guess the thing that really got me was the fact that while they preached on the "consistency" of the program it seemed every time I thought I had the system down pat, they would change it! I also resented the fact they made me feel like I had to buy those stupid tapes, man I really bought into that crap! The sad part is that my ex-sponsor is a super nice guy and every time I talk to him he's always "just a few months from going direct" and he's been saying that since 1989 when I first met him!!!!

Thanks for your time,

Bill

Hey Scott -

I enjoyed looking over your website. I've learned a lot about it.

Well, I think I've gotten into the Amway mess. A friend of mine sponsored me to be in it a couple of months ago and so I signed on. I was able to sponsor about 6 people in width and 12 in depth. Most of everybody is not doing what they should be doing. I've spent a lot of money on those functions, even if I was having a little financial trouble. My upline always tried to encourage me to go. I was always doubtful about those meetings since they were about $85 for a ticket. There were a lot of people at this meeting I went to in Dallas, Texas. Probably about 200 people in a Holiday Inn, I don't think it would cost too much to rent an party room at a Holiday Inn (my sponsors told me that everything they sold such as books, tickets, tapes, etc. were non-profit, but I'm glad I know the truth) so I was wondering why I paid so much for a ticket. I haven't made a profit yet off of this and I'm quite disappointed. I want out of it, but I'm pretty good friends with my sponsor. How would I tell him that I want to quit? Thanks a lot, I appreciate it!

Sincerely, J.

Scott,

If it was not for one of my downline distributors I would have still be in the business. He was talking about just visiting Jeff Probst's web site, he could not believe what was on it. I was already having second thoughts about the business so I looked. The dist. who told me about he site is still in the business. I was in Jeff Probst's down line. I knew him personally. I was excited to see someone so young, making the cash he was making. I booked meeting for him in the Oklahoma City area. Then I started noticing that he was not going to functions, and doing meetings any more. My upline said he retired, and they left it a that. I also heard that he put a lot of "negative" untrue information. They advised us not to look at his site. My direct went as far as saying he was creating his own system, and was trying to cut us "his leg" off from the diamonds. I was a willing believer. So I preached the party line. This happened about 4 years ago. I was in the business from march of 1993- til Nov 2000. I drove about 20000 miles a year and destroyed on car with all that mileage. The most pv was about 2000pv, I kept thinking my time will come. I put in about 55 people, most did not buy very much. I had a core of 12 people who bought into the system. We were all broke, but we talked a good game. I will wind up now. But it took almost getting divorced, losing my child to step back and see what was happening. I realized that I was showing the plan about 20 to 30 times a month. What did I have to show for it a high mileage car. I want to say thanks to people like you. You saved me. It took about 6 to 8 months to totally get away from thinking like I was still in the business. Keep up the good work. By the way my first function was in Atlanta GA., and I saw louie carrillo speak. I was in amazement of the bigness of the whole thing. I probably have seen about 40 diamonds speak in my 7 years in the business. Thanks again.

Phil in okc.

Overwhelmed is what I am - but in a good way. (I hope!).

Think I've been on your site(s) for about an hour. Feel as though I've found a valuable secret. Fell upon your link as a reference from one of the uplines in the NWM organization I've recently joined. Gotta admit - after devouring your site, stats, insights, common sense... I'm terrified!! Nonetheless, you did a very good thing!

After reading your information I think (read: HOPE!) that the NWM I've joined seems to be substantially different from AmQuix - but I need to do a bit more due diligence on the price comparison. Thanks to you I won't waste time with it if it doesn't pass some basic tests.

If it ends up that they do seem valid, I'm DEFINITELY requiring that ANYone I "recruit" (aHA!) reads your site before making THEIR decision.

Thanks

AJMelecio, U.S.

P.S. You should consider a version of the business analysis for the mathematically impaired masses (like me!). I got the general idea, but some of it will be overwhelming to those with less formal education.

Thanks again!

AJ

Hey:

Thanks for your site. It is very objective, and does not bash on AmQuix, it really gave me the sober view of the scheme that I needed. I knew something strange was happening and you spelled it out.

I have to show this to my "sponsor".

Chris

Visting your site I had a brief flashback to the summer I spent working for Vector Marketing (Cutco knives) as a sales rep (made it up the "advisor" level in sales commissions ~25% of sales). It was a smaller scale version of what your site describes.

Compared with Amway, it wasn't really that bad - although I was able to go through the system from the perspective of a student living at home (no rent, free food, free car usage) and didn't have to invest more than $140 to get started (for a set of demo knives). Pretty good product - my family had used them for years & I still have my set of knives (and use it). I made ~$1500 in commissions and have a really nice set of knives (won a completion set in a sales contest) for about 120 hours of work (I'm estimating I spent 20 hrs a week for about 6 weeks - I got tired of being "pimped" after that) - netting out to about $12.50 per hour. Which wasn't too bad for an 18 year old during 1992 (when part time jobs were relatively difficult to find).

The comments about senior-level Amway distributors (Diamonds, Emeralds, Platinums) sounds very similar to what my district manger and regional VP used to spout. Cutco was a bit more legit in their sales mix....but most folks still failed. My favorite moment in retrospect was my DM telling my graduating class that we would all sell enough in that weekend ($10,000 each) that we would be able to go to dinner in a fleet of limos....when it's obvious he was pumping up the sheep for the slaughter. I think I was the top rep in the class and I never broke $10,000 in sales for the summer - much less that first weekend. And then there was the big sales push before the regional meeting - they were getting folks to sign up to do $10,000 in sales.....hilarious in retrospect.

But a very, very good training ground - especially for a totally newbie with minimal face-to-face business experience. Most of my gains from the program occured long after I left - when I had to interview for "real" jobs or fight my way up the corporate ladder as a marketing program manager. When I entered the program, I was a very quiet analytical type with pathological shyness (a Classic Meyer's Briggs INTP) - at the end of the summer, I had learned enough about basic selling and relationship skills that I'm comfortable in a sales/client relations role. While there has been a lot of mentoring from managers at my current company along the way (mainly in the areas of subtlety & finesse - Cutco wasn't good for that) - the basic skills of empathic listening, cold-calling, using objection cycles, and solution-based selling proved essential to my career as a marketing manager. You also learn how to recognize organizational BS & hype....very valuable in the long run. And are a LOT more skeptical of recruiter promises after that.

Plus we've got a great set of knives for Thanksgiving :) (Ironically, my girlfriend is also a Cutco veteran - which I never found out until we had been dating for a while & I cooked dinner for her)

Anyhow - great site & you did a really nice job of breaking down the cost/benefit at a distributor level. If most folks did that before joining a MLM as a full time job, they would run away screaming....

Although I do intend to recommend to my kids that they try something like this for a summer for the experience....

John

Scott,

The facts and figures I referred to were such things as the Social Security/Retirement facts and the like in the Britt Worldwide literature we used to show the plan. We were also encouraged to present the 6-4-2 plan as if each level of depth occurred a month apart (i.e. you'd get in one month and do 100 PV, sponsor six the second month and your business would do 700 PV, and so forth), thereby giving the impression that you'd be retired in 4 months. Furthermore, we were told to represent BV:PV ration as 2:1 in the plan, not bothering to tell someone that this is for a few products and most Amway merchandise has a much less favorable ratio. We were instructed to tell

people we showed the plan to that the business has no overhead costs. Then we were to encourage them to buy all the support materials, all the while telling them that "tools are tax deductible." Oh, and let's not forget the "save 30% by buying at cost from yourself" number. I've done the math and I arrived at the same conclusions that you did. You don't save on Amway products versus what you're already buying.

While we're at it, let's add to this that we were told that business support materials were strictly voluntary. We were then told not to work with people who weren't on SOT. The common line goes something like this: "If you're just on standing order, you're on minimum wage" (quote from Kanti Gala.) Funny, I thought that Amway was a business about "helping people."

We were instructed to tell people that if they like to sell they can, but if they don't they don't have to. We were never told about the 10 customer rule or any of the other rules regarding retail sales. In other words, it was portrayed as optional. We were occasionally told to hold back PV to put people over the 7500 PV level as well. We were encouraged to buy more stuff than we needed, even waste stuff, so that we could generate more PV. Finally, we were told that all products carry a 100% money-back guarantee. This is a misrepresentation of the company's policy, because we returned some merchandise after going on warehouse direct and were given vouchers for more

merchandise instead of a refund. Also, the vouchers had to be used for product only, not shipping or tax. Of course, we didn't get any credit for the shipping and tax we had originally paid on the merchandise.

In the end, we decided that this was a negative-sum game. We saw our taxes show a loss for two years and our tax advisor strongly advised us against claiming a loss the third year for fear of an audit. We, of course, agreed and promptly decided to flush Amway.

Hey, this is good! I also did a sheet of price comparisons (Amway vs.Costco, in Excel). After relocating to Silicon Valley, found out one of my friends is a distributor and we're now in an ongoing (though low-intensity) debate of COSTCO vs. Amway. Nice to see another sapient creature doing the same.

The real benefit came from the rest of your SWOT, especially covering the operational rules, which kind of limit the e-commerce possibilities. If you don't mind, I'll include either a direct or slightly indirect link to your site in mine (still constructing).

Thanks for the sound advice. I appreciated your business sense, your insight on the MLM world, and your humour on the Sneetch page.

I've recently been hounded by a sponsor and finally agreed to read some material and meet for lunch at which his "upline" sponsor also attended. As expected a lot of flash and no content. The sponsor was my age, 35, an alleged crown prosecutor and expects to annualize 6 figures in his part-time.

I received what I call a motivational tape to listen to and was invited to a seminar for next week.

I'm a professional sales guy. I'm not too bright but I know a sell when I smell one. Plus, I like to check things out pretty thoroughly before I buy - which is why I searched the 'net for more information. I quickly found your helpful site.

Anyone would be interested in earning good money so that they can have more and better time with their family. It's a shame that some representatives of Amway and Quixtar are out there peddling mis-information to achieve it at the expense of others.

Thanks again.

Hi Scott.

Just thought I'd write in with my experiences. Down in Australia, we have to put up with A2K. Associated people, when pushed, flatly deny that it is in any way linked to Amway, until you put it to them that even the name stands for "Amway 2000".

They are no where near the organized sort of crew that you guy seem to have. When approached at the local McDonalds by a smoking man and asked "oi bro... wanna make some quick cash" I was certain he was referring to drug running, and almost called the police.

I ended up in a meeting with the guy. My technical background (I work at a large ISP) was how I knew not to get involved. You see the web site (www.a2k.com.au) runs on Win32 Apache, which even its creators say doesn't work very well. They advise not using it on any important web sites and, more importantly, stress that it can't handle much load.

I spent the whole night looking over the statistics, and I assure you, if that web site was getting even a quarter of the hits they claimed it was, it would have keeled over and died, it's as simple as that.

The crew is a pain in the ass quick frankly. They still ring me every so often and ask if I'm "happy with my life".

What gets me the most is this concept where they seem to believe anyone who owns a credit card is a fool. It's not enough just to somehow convince themselves that they can actually live without one, but when I take my gold card and make $1500 purchases, then pay it off within a week, people who still work at McDonalds (and there are several in the 16-20 year old group I know of which do this) assure me they only work there to keep themselves from getting bored, as they don't actually have to do anything to rake in the money at Amway.

They then typically have the gall to swear to me that my work has no job security and I'm going to get fired and go broke any day now.

I've since had friends get very caught up in the group and take it personally when I talk about it, so if you want to publish this please keep my address private.

Hi Scott!

It's been a while since I've written, but have kept up with all the improvements at your site. Keep going, it's terrific!

I'm no longer active in Quixtar. (I still buy the vitamins, though.) There was no way I could logically justify it, and I had been operating on less-than-logic for more than 5 years... I 'd like to share a little info on my PERSONAL EXPENSES that you might find interesting...

While I was "working the Plan," first in Amway, then in Quixtar, I really did "plug in" to the Yager system. It was promoted by my upline and to not plug in was to not be a player on the team. You're well aware of all of this, so...

While going through an old tax return, it struck me to add up all my profits / expenses just to confirm a hunch I had. (At the time I was really trying to understand and get a grip on my personal finances.)

So, the following expenses are on the SYSTEM ONLY. It does NOT include the monthly outlay for products! These are my ACTUAL DEDUCTIBLE EXPENSES from the following years' Federal Income Tax Returns. (I did not claim the business for 2000, although I did have some expenses there as well.)

The deductible business portions of the expenses include the following;

Business Tools (Tapes, Videos, Flip Charts, etc.)
Business Meals
Car Expenses
Dues
Office Supplies
Postage
Seminars
Telephone & Cell Phone
Travel (Hotels, Airfare, Car Rentals, etc.)
Voice Mail
Website Maintenance/Internet Access

Gross Profits Deductible Expenses Minus Gross Profit

TOTALS
Gross Profit = $ 547.00
Total Outlay = $37,471.00

Soon after totaling this up, things really fell together, I cut my losses, and got out. I had also been misinformed - I found out later that business losses are deductible for three years only! (And imagine if I had invested that money into some other tangible asset?!!! - OUCH!)

I hope this is of use to you. All I can say is you're being very conservative in your estimates of what is spent on the System, at least in my case. For most of those five years I was SINGLE, however, so there were no additional
expenses for child care, nor doubling of the expenses for meals out, travel expenses, etc.

Thanks again, for doing what you do. It was definitely a catalyst in really examining what I was doing with the business.

If you need to use the numbers, just call me "Casualty X."

Take care, best of luck, and I owe you one! Thanks.

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