Here is some more mail I have received from site readers who are or were distributors. The newest replies are at the top.

I am a 2 month member of Quixtar. I have always been considered a very intelligent person, never taken in by "scams",etc. I also have a very active "bullshit" meter.

Dear Scott,

This is just a short note to tell you that after two years of brainwashing by a brilliant (and unsuccessful) Amway direct distributor, I can verify your web site information 100%. My direct became my husband, and as time went on, I grew appalled at the lies he incorporated into his "work" with Amway and Quixtar. Whether he actually believed them or not is up for debate.

We were married only for a short time, until I learned that his MO was to prey upon women who could support him and his Amway lifestyle. He always signed up these women under him and then took them to Amway functions rather than dates. He said that any deviation from this pattern would be a waste of time. He listened to tapes constantly, spent incredible amounts of money on the major functions, and used only Amway products in his home. He used the self-improvement impetus to shame all his women into believing they were not ambitious/driven/committed enough to the Dream, and by slowly eroding their self-esteem, increased his own power over them.

At the same time, he lived in a virtual shack, had no furniture or money of his own, and was deeply in debt. He never showed a profit and had not even paid state or federal income taxes in many years.

Why did I (and a number of other very intelligent and caring women) get involved with this man? He was charming, charismatic, and possessed of such devotion to the "dream" that we found him irresistible. We all felt he had so much potential and wanted to help him succeed. I'm thankful that I got out when I did, and I now realize that Amway and Quixtar are probably unworkable concepts for the great majority of people. Of all the people I ever met in my husband's group, none were making any money. I always felt the Diamonds made their money only from the tools and functions, and that their word was always suspect.

Early on, I asked my husband why it was that I never heard about all the successful people that seemed to be out there in the world making money from Amway. Why is it, I asked him, that you can go through a neighborhood and say, yes -- that person is a successful doctor, a successful attorney, a successful researcher, etc. etc. -- but you never hear anyone say -- yes, my neighbor is a successful Amway distributor. I think there are too few of them, and they're too secretive about how they really make their money, to withstand the cold light of investigation.

My former husband was Albert Walter Thomas of Auburn, AL. I think he had been in Amway at least 10 years (or more) when I met him, although he was never completely clear on that point. He had attained Direct status, but had done so only by quitting his job and taking out a loan to support himself in order to push for the necessary point accumulation. I don't believe he maintained that point level for very long and he certainly never made it during the time I knew him. He was downline in the Gooch organization and is probably working on his next "victim" right now. For years he has used the "uncaring women in his life" to explain his lack of success in Amway. It's true that all of us ceased to care after being beaten down both emotionally and financially.

Keep up your crusade, Scott. Amway exploits people's most basic psychological needs to belong to something and to have hope for the future. It's a tough battle to fight them, but it's important for people to know the truth.

You may publish any part of this, and also may contact me for any additional information. I'm a newspaper deputy editor and a professional writer and, I might add, sadder but much wiser.

Melanie

Scott,

Thank you for the site! Here's my two-cents worth of agreement...

Amway, and the two other MLM schemes I've joined--and since quit (can I say that word?!), share one common element...They effectively market the every elusive American Dream. They all claim that their "unique system" can bring you desires of your heart easily and with minimal work (imagine that!). After two years, three companies, and NO INCOME to speak of, I finally saw MLM for what it was--and still is...an unethical fraud perpetrated upon the masses by greedy and self-serving fiends. Tapes and recruiting activities are pushed almost exclusively, and the requirement to disclose the need for retail sales--a disclosure requirement set by Federal law--is ignored during most meetings. I truly believe, and you stated similarly, that the existence of the internet will continue to help others see MLM for what it is. It will help bring sobriety to those of us who chose the intoxicating buzz of dreaming BIG over the harsh realities of making a living. Making it BIG is possible in America, but for those of us with a conscience and a true desire to help our fellow citizens...scams and fraud cannot and will not replace hard work, education, and integrity.

Still dreaming BIG with the blinders removed,

Steve Pietra

Good site.

I used to be an Amway distributor. The facts you show about 72% dropping stating they didn't know the full facts probably is true.

How?

The people like me who dropped out; my upline sponsor, it is NOT in their best interest to really tell you everything. The one thing I kept hearing is "Sell the plan", and you have to buy the info kit at approx. 50.00+ When I really got into Amway I found out allot of things. They state you are an independent business, yet severely restrict you on how you run YOUR business. How? Requiring to purchase your advertising materials and ALL products you sell from them; getting permission to put a sign on your car, and much more. It started to look like I was an employee for Amway but was paying all the expenses and they made all the money. Case in point. I tried to purchase a 55 gallon drum of their laundry soap and sell it by the pound at swap meets with my business card and full color copy of the advertising; AMWAY denied me and also threatened me legal action if I did. Another thing is they set your profit margins and it averages 4-10%. In the end the only way you might make some money is "Sell The Plan and kits"; but in the end you lose money in tremendous amounts of time involved.

In the end to only ones who are making what Amway claims is people who got into an area where there was NO Amway and were at the top of the alleged non pyramid.

Another kick in the head was they required a minimum amount of purchases per month to stay at a certain level or lose out and drop to a lower level.

I would bet allot of the people who dropped out have their garages full of Amway products. I didn't make that mistake. Also they had this minimum requirement for your down line people also; so if one doesn't make it everyone gets nailed, and you drop out, your upline would get your people.

So the system is to make money you have to count on your down line people dropping out and you get ALL the people they had; THAT is how you might then make money. It is really interesting that I may be the only who has realized this. Of course the mentioned is just my opinion now.

Dear Scott;

Hello. My name is Wayne. I am a married man with two teenage boys. I am writing you because I need to know if I am doing the right thing!

Several months ago, my wife and I were approached by a couple who we met at the local marina. After visiting with us a few times, we signed up as IBO's with Quixtar through them.

We immediately signed up two couples that we knew. About a month ago, one of those couples sent us the address to your site and we read every bit of it twice!

In my rush to do the right thing for myself and family; I have come to the conclusion that "The Dream" took over almost every aspect of my life! I made statements to my wife like: "I want to sell off the things we worked hard to get, so we can invest in the business" and "Let's just hang around with business people only, and forget about the others!" It was only when I heard myself saying these things, that I realized that I was in deep! We have also spent alot of money on BSM's (Business Support Materials), and product!

My question to you is this...How do I tell my sponsors, who have become friends of ours and that are great people, that we want to "get out" without offending them?

Also; I am at a crossroads because I wonder why people from Colorado (our upline), would come all the way to Connecticut just to talk to us and our downline. They even talk to us on the phone monthly at least. Are they genuinely interested in seeing us succeed? It seems like a lot of trouble and expense on their part, to go through all this just to keep us as IBO's!

I know that you are probably busy but if you could find the time, we can really use some educated advice. Your site is informative and very interesting, and I'm glad that there is a resource like this but I need a personal answer to make the right decision.

Feel free to use any or all of the content of this email for your site if you so desire.

Take Care and Thank You!

Sincerely;

Wayne

We are in Canada, but if anything ever comes up similar to the FTC that you hear about I would like to know.

We did not know Don Lorenz personally, but when we joined Amway at the beginning of 1997, Don & Allie were at our first major function, Family Reunion. They suddenly disappeared and our Upline Emerald, " Isn't it great that Don & Allie can go Diamond and Just Retire that was their Dream. " And Mark and Tami looked like even bigger sacrificial lambs. " They could retire too but just look at them driving the miles for you guys; Wow what honorable people. After a while I started to wonder Where are they? I mean you would think that they would still come to some of the Functions; this is their group and if they really did believe in the system why would they just abandon it. We listened to some of the speakers that were in their group and Don & Allie were never mentioned (except once and the guy said something about all the help that Don had given him and then the struggles he went through when Don had left; then he went silent and well anyway it was just really weird ) and it was like they just disappeared. When I saw your site it all made so much sense.

We had signed up some of our friends all them had quit before we wised up ( we were locked pretty tightly by "the system" ). All except for one couple, that I'm really scared for. They fight all the time. He says that she negative and she won't support him, you know the usual jargon. His wife is worried about him. (and I don't blame her I was in that same place last year at this time ) She's told me how much he's changed. All the things that Rob changed into ( although I'm sure you're not surprised ). She wants us to talk to him But I'm not sure if he's ready yet. Any way your site will help us to help her Thank you so much.

Scott ~

I may have emailed you in the past thanking you for the site and how it has helped me 'deprogram' over the past (almost) 2 years now.

To be brief...my wife & I were heavily involved with the Jody Victors LOS (known as MMP) for nearly 5 years and we developed a very close relationship with him. Like most we never turned a profit and were driven by emotion rather than logic so the financial hardship got worse. We were originally excited about the Quixtar launch (along with tons of hype at the seminars) but when I started poking around on the web the bottom dropped out. I found your site along with a host of others, but yours and the MLM Survivors homepage were in my opinion among the best. I have since developed a dialogue with Ruth Carter and enjoyed reading her book.

I wish you continued success with the site. Please let me know if the info has helped. I'd be happy to discuss further if you'd like.

hello Scott,

I am currently an IBO who saw the light after reading your site. I want to let all the people I know involved with Quixtar about your site....Would I be breaking any laws if I were to send it out to everyone involved? waiting for your response

answers to your questions....

I believe the products are too expensive to buy if not an IBO the arguments on the site that made most sense were the lies about the 2 for 1 pv/bv....also the BSM business really opened my eyes,,,,I had no idea

Mr. Larsen,
Youre site was incredibly fascinating!!!!! I wish you were around when I got involved with Equinox and other companies. I would be in alot better financial position than I am now. If I would have read your straight-forward views, I wouldn't be $25,000-$30,000 in-debt right now. I believe your site was in no way biased. It was the plain TRUTH. You are doing a great service.
If you would like some info on my experience with Equinox or other companies you can e-mail me. Please do not print my e-mail address.

Sincerely,
Mickey

Scott,

I've spent four to five hours browsing your site over the past two months. You put a lot of work into acquiring the information. Those four - five hours would have saved me hundreds of hours spent over the past year, if I had known about your site. Many of the other sites are merely complaining sites that would normally cause me to ignore it, but yours is very informative and honest. I filled out the questionnaire for the FTC inquiry. Please continue to encourage others to take action through the FTC to change Amquix. I first started to get frustrated when I found out about the 70% rule, 10 customer rule, etc. My upline didn't want to talk about them and I started to realize what was going on. I'm a young dreamer, like many I suppose. I hope other well-intentioned people will be more critical than I was at first. Most of the workers in this thing don't realize the dirty little secrets. Thanks again for your attempt to unmask the secrets and stop some well-intentioned people like me from spending so much money.

Sincerely,

Hello Scott,

My wife and I were in the Amway business (WWBD, Severn Line) for 2 years. Our sponsor, my former boss, was a good friend before and during the time we were in WWDB. When we quit, we lost contact with him. A very sad turn of events. I miss our friendship...it's to bad WWDB has become between us.

So you know, and for your information, our reasons for quiting were due to our "upline" (my sponsors sponsor). In an effort to "grow" I was told to go directly to this man for questions and information about the business. One thing he told me (can't believe he told me this!) was that he was in the business for 9+ year, had NEVER gone above 6000 p.v. and at the time we were in, he had like 10-15 downline and was doing 4000 P.V. BUT, he said it was quite profitable. (He and his wife are doctors). As time passed, I saw no growth in their business. Same old people coming to the meetings, that phoniness on the AMVOX, and that weird social climate at the rallies and seminars. Just a strange vibe. I even had ol' Dave come to my house and Show the Plan. I think there were 3 guests out of like 30 people.

The straw that broke the camel's back was when I got a new job. I was perplexed because the job might require me to work nights. I wanted to let my "upline" know, to give me some encouragement so that I could continue my business by getting other night owls involved. But when we talked, there was no encouragement. It was " you have to get another job and quit that job." "There is no way you can build this business during the day. You MUST build it at night!." That was it. I said this is BS, I am gone! Amazingly, we did not go broke, but saved money not buying $ 5.00 toothpaste. We also looked back at all the money we pissed away on leadership trips and "Family Reunion."

Looking back on this now (it's been 2 years since we quit), I have no regrets on quitting or the time we spent (though I could use that money time to time). But I can tell you this. One thing, if any, put some doubt in my mind. I will never forget this. It was '98 Free Enterprise Event in Anaheim Ca. EDC Al Gallo was talking about the sacrifices that he had to make. He told a story about how he HAD to go out and show the plan this one day, and his son wanted him to stay home and play ball with him. He wept as he told the story of how he left his son to play ball with the neighbor, and he went out, to build their future. It made me sick...and I asked my wife..'Why are we here when we should be home with our son?" Is THIS really worth it?" I am glad I finally got that answer right! Keep up the good work...people in Amway need to hear you...though they don't really want to.

Jason A.

Thank you for the time and effort you put into your site.

My wife and I wasted 6 years "chasing the dream" doing almost everything they told us (7.5/ 8 core, showed plan 5-10 times per month last 2 years average). Buying all the tapes, books and going to the functions (transportation, extra night in hotel, food) added up to almost $10,000 per year. Too bad we can't get those 6 years back. I hope others don't make the

same mistake we did.

Hope you don't get bullied into shutting your site down.

Hi Scott

I have looked at your site. I compliment you !

I had already decided before I saw it that the information from the Probst Article was enough for me to realize I wanted no part of a Business with a Hidden Agenda-ie the System Hidden Agenda. I feel very sad that there are so many good people in this business that either are not aware, or are in some way making "justifications" re receiving system rebates.

I feel it is deceitful, and immoral, and will be giving this info to all downline. I suspect that my upline Emerald is very much so involved with the system rebates, as I now remember an incident where my sponsor was "told Off" for purchasing a function ticket from a "crossline" Direct. I now understand why, which I could not understand at the time. I have always thought from the beginning that the Speakers would be paid. I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with the deceit, and the profit from the Seminars and Tapes, that is shared by the bigger pins.

I feel that the coreline products are excellent, and value for money at the IBO price. I will continue to buy those.

But I am no longer an IBO, and I can never thank my colleague enough for bringing these sites of information to my attention. I already had doubts, but was prepared to give it a go because I thought it was an Integrity Based Business. What a joke!

It is a shame that some greedy people have ruined what I believed to be a good business. I never could relate to Dexter and Birdie Yager in the Tapes. Now I know why!!!

Thanks from the bottom of my heart. I would have been devastated to have gone direct and found this out! Not only for my sake, but more importantly for the sake of my downline, as I do have a genuine love of helping people.

Scott: I have written to you a couple of times in the recent past. Just for a quick review, my wife and I became IBO's to help some friends out who were gung-ho on Quixtar. They have been friends for a long time and have supported us through our tough times. Anyway, their up line has been giving them heat to try to get us more active. Last Friday, when my wife and I were both working, the up%20line left a long message hoping to corner my wife to get together and talk about how to do the business the right way.

Finally, the inevitable had to happen. It was now time to for me to share my Wal-Mart price comparison with her as well as ask several tough questions from your listen the web site. Two things really stand out that I would like you to help me clarify.

Number one, when asked about the retail sales rule and collecting bonuses, she said, "We can get around that because we are part of international dream builders. If you order your product from your upline, this allows you to collect the bonus without selling to people retail. I am sure this is in violation of the retail sales rule. One things this particular group does

(Jimmy and Judy Head leg) is confuse you as much as possible. They use rules from Amway, Quixtar, and International Dream Builders when it suits what they want to tell you. You are literally left with the feeling that you are being pulled in three different directions by three separate companies not sure which of the three you belong too. They have taken some rules from all three and built their own little niche you might say. One thing she did say was that if I would try to order from My Health, My Self, and My Home through Quixtar, they would put a stop to it because they want you ordering from your upline. I told her this was "controlling, heavy-handed, and just plain stupid." I think I got her goat on that one.

Number two, she almost went to obnoxious lengths to get us to buy the motivational tapes and go on "standing order" (whatever that is) to give to our recruits, though we will probably not recruit anybody. I asked her the question as to where the $5.40 of profit per tape goes, and she said "well it is now $6.40 as the price has gone up, and it all goes to International Dream Builders." When I asked her if she got any of the profits from the tapes, she said a flat out "NO". I told her that I could buy them on Internet Auction sites like Yahoo, and she said that stuff was out of date and not current. When I told her it was the same stuff that my upline gave to me to listen to, she said that if everybody did it that way, International dreambuilders would go bankrupt. My wife also chimed in that Mary Kay sells similar tapes for one buck each. She always had a comeback for most things I said, though she did little more to talk in circles.

Asking her to see her IRS 1040 Schedule C really got her goat. She said it was none of my business and she would never show me. When I asked her how many IBO's were new or quit for the company as a whole this year, she had no clue. When asked what percentage of IBO's ever make Diamond or Ruby, she had no clue again. She kept saying it didn't matter because she new people who were successful and that were millionaires. When I asked her if they were millionaires according to Generally Accepted Accounting principles, she said, "I have never heard of that, what is that?" She also tried to tell me that when people write off their business expenses, it was a dollar for dollar tax credit. Having been a former tax preparer, I explained that it was not a dollar for dollar tax credit, and how somebody like me would be lucky to get .28 cents on the dollar for every dollar in written off expenses.

By the end of the 2 1/2 hour conversation, she said "nobody has ever asked question like this to me before." I hope I don't hear from her for a long, long, time. I'll keep you posted! Any comments that you have for me would be appreciated.

Bryan

WWDB has these weekend conferences where people gather and "give their life to Christ" on a Sunday morning at the Target Center. I am all for that if it is genuine, but I see too many of them playing on an emotional topic for the God almighty dollar.

Bottom line--I think some of those uplines are milking Jesus Christ for every cent they can get out of him. I only hope when they realize what a farce this business is that they don't blame Christ.

Bryan

Scott: here are some more short stories about "this business" here in snowy

MN.

Amway/Quixtar folks are great spin-doctors--they should work for Clinton-Gore. Anyway, when our new local WalMart SuperStore came into town, an electrician who worked at the site told my upline that the buiding was built such that it could quickly be converted to something other than a WalMart Store. WalMart's thinking was that e-commerce would someday render the brick and morter business obsolete. They used this as an example to join Quixtar with all the future potential of e-commerce on the net. When Wal-Mart pulled their .com off the web for a few months this year, they put a spin on that as saying that Quixtar.com was killing the competition and your typical Wal-Mart shopper was a stupid fool who spent too much money at the store and could not use a computer to find a web site. We both know what a bunch of bunk that is. They seem to have a spin for every situation. They love to attack amazon.com as well.

When my upline's upline approached them about the business, they tried to turn them against their employer. When Mary Ann told them how much she liked her job, they told her that her husband Jay could stay home and be free, and she could continue to work her job and donate her paycheck to charity. They would have so much money in the business that she could afford to do that. What a farce that is, but again, another example of spin. Jay is your typical under achiever with loads of common sense. I think he is slowly beginning to figure this all out. He really does not like his job, and probably wishes he would have applied himself more to his studies 20 years ago. Anyway, he sent me a note this week that said "Plowing snow sucks!" I thought to myself, he better start to like it, he will be doing it for at least another 28 years and probably longer if he continues to buy 200 PV/Month!

Their uplines biggest gimmick these days is to say that "90% of folks that are shown the Quixtar plan enroll as IBO's." When I pointed out that Jay only had five IBO's including me, I said those numbers did not add up in my mind. That dog just would not hunt. Anyway, if you could have been with us a few weeks ago, you probably would have died of laughter. We were told they were going to "pack the house" on a Friday night after Thanksgiving.

They were shooting for 20-30 people to see the plan. Since we are already IBO's and had seen the plan at least three times, we thought we would shoot for an arrival time around 90 minutes after the presentation started. Jay's mom lives very close, so we thought we would visit with her before crashing the party. Anyway, when we arrived, their "full house" consisted of one person who was a big dummy. I think he joined the next week--poor sucker. Anyway, I could not even sit in the room and hear the final touches of the plan as I would have burst out in laughter seeing such a packed house.

More at a later time. Hope you enjoy these true stories.

Bryan

From a Quixtar Message board:

My husband and I just came back from our winter conference with the true north group and we couldn’t believe how small the crowd was. We have been silvers in this group for a long time and we are always being told when we ask why true north is sliding backwards every month that it is just something that happens sometime and it will get better. They claim it is happening to all businesses like ours yet it seems like all of the other home based businesses are growing every year.

After reading your site, we are wondering if it is not just the true north but also all of Amway and Quixtar that is falling?

It is like this business has lost all of the good that we thought it had when we joined 7 years ago. When we first got in everything was positive and upbeat and now it seems everyone including the Crawfords who own the functions are getting more negative every time we are around them. All of the good leaders that we used to have in the true north have quit including platinum’s, emeralds and diamonds and all the Crawfords and the zombie leaders that follow them do is make up stories about these great leaders that left. Before these leaders quit they were the greatest people in the world according to the ‘leaders’ but as soon as they quit then they start these horrid stories about them so the no-minds that keep coming to these functions will not think any less of what is left of this small group because the good people stay. Or is it, the good people leave?

We have spent so much money on tapes, books and functions since we got in that we are now afraid to quit as they keep telling us if we stay plugged in it will happen for us. Our problem is that we brought quite a few people into this business and now we feel guilty that if we quit, we are quitting on our people and this hurts us inside yet we haven’t brought anyone new into the business for 4 years because we know there is something wrong with it.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas for us as we sure feel confused right now?

Thanks

J & R

Scott,

Best line I've heard yet to close an AmQix presentation at an open meeting here in Motown:

"You better get in now, because there WILL come a time when you'll need a resume to get into Amway."

Hell, I damn near needed a counselor just to get OUT. And this was a diamond talking!

Most uninformed award goes to the diamond, who, on a 1999 standing order tape proclaimed that the Amway/Quixtar combo was on it's way to $100 billion by 2005. Guess he missed the info on the sales growth. You think?

I shouldn't criticize, because at the time I believed him, and without checking the sales growth trend. This business preys on the uninformed, suggestible, easily controlled people. Me, I was just uninfomed and suggestible. The control issue is what pushed me out. Thank God.

I am SOOOOO tempted to do 2 things:

1) To get back into the swing of things, JUST to see how my butt-kissing upline (now I know how he got addicted to thatridiculous breath spray) will respond when I tell him to keep the standing order tapes, and "no, I won't be making FED--this single guy will actually be 'screwing around on a date' (as he so eloquently put it)."

2) To go back and inform some of the beautiful peopleinvolved, regarding the actual business they are in. There's one woman in Quixtar who really believes that she will soon be making, in the words of demigod Paul Miller, as much in a month as he made in a year for 1998-99.

It's sad. I mean, yes, a corporate j-o-b will likely screw you over eventually, but at least you know it's coming.

Regards,

Jeff

And you know what scares me the most?

One of the most prevalent lines in the Britt organization is "Don't let anyone steal your dream."

Well they almost stole mine.

They really had me thinking that the ONLY way on God's green earth to become financially independent was to build an Amway/Quixtar business.

Had I bought into that much longer, time would have passed on me and it would have been too late by the time I realized that Amway/Quixtar, the way it's run now, isn't a feasible business at all, if you are looking for profitability. And I would have wasted my prime-time youth, chasing a pipe-dream. And lost the opportunity to really pursue my dream of building a real business that helps drive the economy and provides opportunities for other people, as opposed to take-take-take...smile in your face...take-take-take.

Well, there are many dreams getting shattered by the same people who proclaim to be dream builders.

DAMN!!! It just hit me as I was fixing dinner today (yes I'm originally from the South):

Now it all makes sense, that is, how some guys who had money to begin with can become diamonds so fast, and immediately begin enjoying the money at that pin level. If I initially made $385,000 a year (not saying no names), and somehow got close to one of the biggest pins in the business, I suppose I could become a diamond pretty fast also (paced properly, and without raising too much suspicion of course), and maintain that level of income from the system as my downline grew.

Keep doing what you're doing Scott.

Jeff

Dear Scott:

I found your site while searching for "Quixtar" references. To be brief, I will say you are 100% correct in exposing the lie of the Britt organization in Amway (or whatever they call it this week). I was in the biz back in 1979 and 1980-81, and came to the realization I was being had. The upline was disingenuous with me about profits from the tools, and after I asked my Direct about it I was cut out of further discussion on the topic and ostracized from the organization. They knew I was on to them and they seemed afraid I was going to "poison" the others, so I was cut off socially and professionally. They knew I was not stupid, and being a small-business operator understood I could talk profits and loss on retail and wholesale products. Their numbers were not adding up, and it was obvious to me somebody was not coming through with the facts.

It's a shame the "dream" they keep force-feeding me was not important anymore, as I was "negative" and should be excluded. Also, my Diamond (who later quit) ignored me and made me feel like I was beneath him, as he was teaching us to sponsor "up" and I was "below" him (he was a doctor). What a phoney, and all in the name of God and America.

These Britt people should be sued for all they're worth. It would be a service to the poor souls who get dreamy-eyed and follow these pied pipers. Am I bitter? HELL YES... just give me all of my tape-of-the-week money back and I'll get over it.

Thanks for reading:

Scott,

I ran across your site and the e mails from folks regarding Quixtar, and most are right on. Many of the Amway/Quixtar products are very good and I remain an IBO for many of these products that are unique. The big problem is the system, and it took me three years to find out that the system was a moneymaker for some IBO's. There are a lot of people making money from tapes and books aimed at mlm- many good companies out there like Upline etc, but the problem with Quixtar is that no one ever told us that there was "profit" in all the books and tapes. Looks like at the low levels we are not supposed to know.

MLM does work, we are with a great company now, and making some money at retail with an exclusive product, but were are not getting rich! One other point- much of the positive, self motivation, and personal development material we received from both Quixtar and our current business has been a real boost to our corporate careers. The side benefit to all of the mlm companies is the access to a lot of personal growth materials which we would have never known about otherwise- so all was not lost. Keep up the good work with your site- knowledge is power, and shedding light on the darker side of this business may prompt major changes in the industry

Scott,

I stumbled across your website today as I searched for a direct email link to Amway, so as to cancel my subscription to tapes and books. You have provided the answers to dozens of questions I put to my upline over the past 6 months and which he could not answer because he " doesn't know the absolute details about that, but don't worry about it, just show the plan !"

My net search came about because I simply cannot find the correct Tools link phone number in any of the literature received from my upline. These tapes & books have bled $1000 from my family & I over the past 12 months for a return of around $42.00. That is not a gripe, simply a fact, we didn't show the plan more than 20 times, sponsored 2 people only - one of these is our baby sitter who " got in " because she said that '' if we say it is a good thing then it must be good" and so we can't say that we have really let the system work for us or that we have given Amway a serious push. Similar to many others, we effectively gave up after only 3 months effort.

My reason for mailing you is not to regurgitate all that you already know, it is this: to tell of how a mature 47 yr old business person has somehow allowed myself to be influenced by an associate and to get involved in Amway, against my better judgement. Then, 12 months later to find I am greatly disappointed at what I thought should have been a fantastic opportunity.

My heart tells me that the Amway business plan is great, I love the residual income concept and yes, I want to spend more time with my family and even like the idea of helping other people: that would be different for me, after the cut & thrust of the business world and the dog-eat-dog approach.

My head says something quite different: be careful about believing the hype, why is it that I am embarrassed to tell people that I am in Amway, don't get sucked in by these apparent losers, how come there aren't any new diamonds in Australia in the last 3-4 years, why has Amway Australia's turnover dropped at least $50 million since 1992/3, why has my upline not been able to achieve direct level after 3.5 yrs of driving all over the town 4-5 nights a week and half of every weekend as well ?

Why don't I want to spend time with a group of people I hardly know who seem to have a vocabulary of about a hundred words only, mostly to tell me continually that they love me, they believe in me, that I can do it, you just need to keep going to the functions etc. etc. For the first time in my life, I found my self-esteem in question: what is wrong with me that I seem to doubt every " fact" that is stated by these self developed experts up there on a stage? Why do I cringe and find it hard to clap and smile non-stop at functions, how is it that I seem to be the only person that cannot believe the 2nd rate garbage that spews out of their mouths. Why am I embarrassed to contact people about Amway, to sell them the concept? Why is it that I cannot see the same vision as my upline does in terms of the internet " explosion" that is being predicted? Why would anyone need to join Amway to do home shopping when it is looking to be much easier and, I think, less costly to shop online at Woolworth's? Why is it that try as I might I cannot find one previously successful businessperson who has found they needed to get into Amway? They appear on tapes but I have not seen one such person anywhere as yet. Why do I have serious reservations about Amway being something that I can retire on & depend upon for lifetime support? You have answered many of these questions today.

My experience is one of being a frustrated black sheep, unable to get any real facts on this business from upline, being told that perhaps I am just too afraid to have a serious go at Amway. Yes, I am afraid, I have experienced traditional business with all of its highs and lows and understand risk and reward. I am afraid to trust in people I hardly know, without hard evidence of the successes that they have supposedly achieved.

They all seem to drive 2nd hand rust bucket cars, live in cheap houses and have never been in business for themselves before Amway. That is not intended to put these people down, simply to illustrate that I have little faith in the life experiences of these people being sufficient for me to trust in them and blindly do as I am told.

It hurts to admit that I have been sucked in, fooled, especially at my age. But having been burnt in the past by opportunities that looked a little too good to be true, they always are of course, I have been worried about simply trusting in these new business partners and in the actual Amway system from day one. As you well know, their techniques of persuasion are good, very good, and after a short time one's suspicions & doubts slowly fade as the system of persuasion takes hold. For a time I did follow the system of tapes & books seriously and became influenced by some of the thinking and propaganda. But the lack of evidence of any real success by my upline, the admission from my upline direct that he was in for 9 years before achieving direct, the evidence of real struggle by almost everyone in the business and the strange Christian fundamentalist undertones running through the whole Amway structure caused me to eventually lose faith in the business.

I think now that the Amway system does appeal to a certain type of person : those of us that are "dreamers" at heart and seem to be ready and waiting for the Yager statement that " the facts don't count " and are looking for a better way to make a dollar and to live our lives. But some of us also know our own weaknesses and are on the look out for hidden traps when something appears to be a bit too good. I am sad that I won't be going on with Amway, it has affected me deeply, but I also know that I am not suited to be part of the Amway church and am lucky to be breaking a way at an early stage like this, it would be awful to admit defeat after many years.

You have obviously become the recipient of many peoples confessions and the site for pouring out of hearts: that is good in itself, since most of us have no-one who understands this experience to talk to, so I say thank you for reading all of this and I wish you luck in the future.

Regards,

Russell

Scott,

Thanks for your prompt response: for your information, I am calling from Canberra in Australia. The Yager system has one Emerald, 4-5 Directs and I guess around 100-150 IBO's here. There are other Amway organizations but I am told that the Yager group comprises about 70% of Amway turnover in OZ.

The city of Canberra has a population of 250,000 and is the Capital city of Oz, the seat of our Federal Government. Average wages here are very low, most people earn $40,000 to $50,000 tops. Professionals earn $90,000 to $120,000. Canberra is a real government town, a little like Washington DC I am told, not a lot of money around, people are low to middle income earners, 50% are public servants.

To answer some of your questions: I am able to pay for tapes direct to the Amway corporation, they now have taken over the operations and collection of money from IDA, although when I cancelled yesterday I spoke to an IDA person in the IDA office within the Amway center in Sydney. There doesn't appear to be any strings attached so far in canceling, we shall see what happens in practice. Payment is usually made by Amway direct debiting my bank account once a month, they have always been most professional in all transactions. But it is costing around $100 per month for 4-5 tapes & the book of the month. The books are okay, but a bit "wet", they seem to be mostly written by Christian types, and consist of a lot of hype.

I got caught up by the excitement of being able to retire in 2-5 years on reasonable money. The " promise " of $150,000 as a diamond looked good, I have been able to earn around $200,000 annually for the past 5 years but have to work very hard in my Civil Engineering business. The idea of " secure, reliable and passive " income really got me going. I did believe that in 5 yrs I would be sleeping in every morning and not going off to work. I was told by my sponsor that a lot of business people and professionals were joining up, that we would be able to speak regularly to the upline Diamond - Trevor Chatham, and that it would only take 6 months to go direct. None of this is true of course. We never met Chatham, I didn't find any successful business types involved and our sponsor's upline " Silver" has been in for 8 yrs and simply cannot seem to get to Direct.

Whenever I expressed doubt about whether I would be able to achieve the results we hoped for, and asked why nobody else in my upline had achieved very much and therefore, why would I be any different to those people, I was told that the system wasn't as good before as it is now and the " new " approach is setting the world on fire. Is any of this familiar ? The thing that amazes me is that the guys did genuinely seem to believe their own spell, either that or they are completely naive and cannot bring themselves to admit that they may in fact fail for a lot longer yet.

I know that you are probably a very busy person and perhaps don't have time to read all of this stuff, but here is the real reason that I became disillusioned: on my list of names I had people that I wouldn't dare to approach until much later on when I had achieved some results, you know how that goes. One person is a business associate of mine, he is hugely successful and was the person who was Construction Director of the new Parliament house building here in Australia back in 1988. He is probably the biggest name in the Building industry here, he is regularly on National TV business shows, Chairman of several major billion dollar companies and in 1990 received the Order Of Australia award - this award is the highest award given out for civic duties / service in this country since the Left wing governments scrapped the British system of knighthood's some years ago.

So, get the picture, he is full of his own importance but a real nice guy, very smart, a high achiever. My sponsors upline asked to look at my list and saw the name of my associate - he also had met him in the past in Canberra. I grudgingly allowed upline star to call Mr Big, and in fact he was able to get him along to an open. It was held in Sydney, I wasn't able to attend that night. I was doing business with Mr. Big at the time ( not any more ! ) and the very next day received his call - " how dare you give out my name etc. etc. I cannot believe the evangelical crap that con-man was dishing up to all of those poor idiots, how can people get sucked in by that nonsense etc. etc. I hope that you aren't involved Russell, why did you give out my name..... "

I got the biggest serve from him of all time of course. And the phone has gone cold since then, he no longer calls me, which I am a bit pissed about.

Now, I didn't mind the walloping but I did mind being embarrassed that I might be involved in the scheme - up to that point I had believed that this thing might work, but I have a lot of respect for Mr. Big and was shocked by his response to the open meeting. It was at that point that I started to question why had I gotten involved at all, was it a con, what had I missed and how could I have allowed myself to be drawn into something that Mr. Big was able to see through immediately. My sponsor and his upline immediately closed ranks and claimed that Mr. Big was too stressed out over his day to day business dealings and he simply failed to understand how fantastic this opportunity really is. That was it for me, I lost total faith in the whole game.

Okay Scott, thanks for your time, this has been quite therapeutic for me actually, as perhaps you can tell. I must confess that I am still disappointed that I am not going to be an Amway Diamond, I really wanted that part of it, amazing isn't it ? Finding your site has made me understand things a lot more clearly, I think I did basically suspect many of the things you have covered on your site, but had no one to verify that my thinking was probably close to the mark. For that I thank you, if there is some way I can assist here, then please let me know what it is. I will follow through on the other Item shortly.

Regards,

Russell

I do not have any current figures on Amway Australia, I don't seem to be able to find their share market listing either. However, I intend to follow that one through and will send the data to you in due course.

Amway is really on the nose here, there has been an increase in interest since A2K was started - that is the internet system that followed your Quickstar, the e-commerce story has sucked in a lot of people, ourselves included, but I gather from talking to others that people are not staying in for long, I predict that it won't take long and everyone will know that the deal is much the same as before.

Your website is great, I don't have too many suggestions except these:

1. I was not able to operate the audio references, most disappointed, it it's not normally a problem: if there is a need for any special software,

perhaps some help there might be good.

2. Now, depending upon how far you intend to take your current approach, you could contact 60 minutes in Australia and suggest an expose, there are a lot of people being hurt here, as in the USA, by the garbage that Yager spews out: my sponsor is 47, has 3 teenagers, he is out doing his plans 5 nights per week, and most of the weekend. His 12 year old daughter plays weekends with my 12 yr old girl, she never sees her father and now detests him. He is a very nice guy towards outsiders but is a real pig to his family. His son went to court last week on a break & entering charge, drugs related. His wife refuses to be involved in Amway, she works nights at a hospital 6 days a week, and earns nearly as much as John ( sponsor ), ie. $40,000 per yr. The family hates Amway and were deeply embarrassed when John signed us up, though they are now happier since we stopped it. And of course, John no longer calls to tell me that he " loves Helen & I " and we haven't heard from anyone else in their LOS. That doesn't bother me at all, but it is a real pity that the friends we made inside the Yager group have now disowned us. Maybe they can join with our other friends outside of Amway who disowned us when we tried to con them into signing up !

Dear Scott,

I decided to do a web search on Amway and Quixtar, and your site came up right under Amway's site. Deep down I knew when I signed up as an IBO that it was not as easy going and fun as it was made out to be. I should have learned from when I sold knives.

I started to get a little suspicious after I talked to my sponsor's sponsor last night who was ready to move into my apartment with a white board doing a presentation to 50 of my closest friends. Needless to say he freaked me out a little bit and when you used the word cult in your report, you hit the nail on the head.

Anyway... I just wanted to thank you for your presentation. I was impressed with your ability to obtain the facts, and to also reproduce some of the group think that uplines feed to new recruits.

I think there are some tapes in the mail to me coming from my upline, and I am intending to send them back with a nice note saying no thanks. I know that they won't like to hear that from me, but I also know this isn't for me, and I think that's what I will have to tell them.

Thank you again and wish me luck getting out....

:) Laurel

I forgot to mention how much your negative sum game hit home for me. I had this crazy professor my last year in graduate school who taught us about that and had many wild philosophies about the world. However, as much as he said things none of us liked to hear, they are proven over and over again. Not only is Amway a negative sum game, but many business investments are, and it seems that the whole world is involved in one.

The bottom line is Amway sounds great but there is no such thing as a free lunch. We know this but we keep seeking it out.

take care Scott and good luck!

Scott,

Yes. I wrote to you regarding your insightful research on the "business". As a Founder's Platinum I related to your case studies. The more I learned about certain aspects of income generation the more uncomfortable I became, and ultimately I stopped building my group. There is so much deception. I feel that I was lied to and manipulated. Had I been told the truth when I saw the plan, My response would've been quite different. I made life altering decisions based on misrepresentations.

Dear Shree Scott Larsen,

I am from Delhi the capital of INDIA.

I am an electronics engineer by education and in manufacturing business of file clips since last 8 years. But all my education and experience could not prepare me for the magic of Amway ,and Me and my wife became Amway distributors in June 2000.

Scott,

I contacted you last week. You gave me your home address in case I wanted to send you some AMO materials. I will ship out tomorrow some items for your keeping and review. I like the work you are doing and I think lots of starry-eyed IBOs need the scales knocked from their eyes.

Among the tapes I believe the most powerful speaker is Greg Duncan. This guy is SMOOTH. His tape "Private franchising in a Dot.Com World" is standard fare for any prospect. He seems to have all the answers as the most effective Quixtar apologist.

I also include some very recent Britt marketing materials. The Brochure pack is $10 and the Net.Gain video is $15. The Quixtar video "Ya Gotta Go There" is also well produced. I also include the e-Commerce CD announcement and the Net.Gain CD which has sound effects of a cash register ringing up profits as you click on different areas of your home. What a joke.

The only retailing going on in this organization is among the AMOs --certainly not with the product line. Hey, the products are already list price at so called distributor cost.

Forbes magazine this month has a list of the largest privately held companies in America. Amway is shown at 39th with a Forbes estimate of revenues at just $3.5B. Now 39th is not too bad but that revenue figure is a far cry from their peak of $6.8B in 1997 -- oops I forgot, that was the mythical "estimated retail sales" wasn't it?

The Quixtar numbers are not very impressive. The actual revenues were barely $400M and most of that was NA distributors flopping over from Amway to Quixtar. All the Amway sites were taken down. The saturation of Amway is incredible -- I can't believe I was lulled by the e-Commerce intrigue thinking that Amway was somehow the perfect model of "permission marketing" -- that phenomenon that Yahoo guru Seth Godin talks about. Trouble is that most people have been asked permission and have said NO!

Finally, your parcel also includes one of the stupidest books -- "Be a Prosumer." Everyone was crowing about this one. Also, I include the latest Bill Britt Flip chart presentation -- typical fare that talks about all the goodies and materialism up front and then shows the "business team" at the end -- all the meglamaniacs of the AMO mafia -- you can do it too, blah, blah. This thing goes for $20.

Thanks for your good work. You should receive the shipment in a few days.

Dear Scott:

Thanks for the great site. You are 100% correct on everything you say, which amazes me since you weren't "in" that long. My Wife and I were in for a solid three years. We were brought into the business by two of our closest friends. I was suspicious from the start, and asked all the questions. I was told by our directs that some of the things we were asking we did not need to know at this time. Huh? Yet we kept plugging away, as we were convinced we would be losers or failures if we didn't continue. Don't waste your time watching TV, we were told. (Or anything else not related to the business) I will admit that we have tried other things outside of our regular full time jobs with no success, so I felt the need to continue. There are strong emotions connected to this, as you know. But I finally got to the point where I thought the endless meetings, rallies, tapes, etc., just didn't make sense to me anymore...it was the same stuff over and over and over. I convinced my wife that the money we were spending was being wasted. I will admit to being a negative person, I question everything probably to a fault. But I feel vindicated about this because I always suspected there was money being made on tools. Your dialog with Loiue Carillo (Whom I am very familiar with, have listened to his tapes) was unbelievable... he is just skirting the real issues. Of course he's happy with the "system", for crying out loud, he's in that small percentile that made this work. Not me though, that is money made on deception. I wouldn't want it!! (Sell your wedding ring if you have to, to make this rally! Jeeezz!!)

Keep up the good work, I am going back to watch some TV with my wife, guilt free. (There is some good stuff to watch, regardless of what people say!) I am so happy we stopped when we did, before we lost any more of our hard-earned money to these bandits. I just wish I would have realized it much sooner.

Thanks, Alan

Dear Scott

Thanks for your site. I joined the business about 2 years ago in South Africa, have worked inconsistently with my wife on and off for about 18 months of that time, sponsored about 15 people and reached the dizzying height of a 6% pin. When we have worked we worked hard. I am sponsored under the Mitch and Diedre Sala line -advertised as the fastest growing network in the Amway world within Network 21. I am an academic and thus not a big earner and have always worried about pricing and never bought more than was absolutely necessary from Amway i.e. I have not consumed for the sake of consumption alone. My average consumption is well below the 50PV per month touted in the plan (R400.00 -South African Rand). I was also resistant to purchasing tons of system tools not that the accumulated set of tools was exactly small. What a bad little Network 21 distributor I have been!

I came across your site by accident but just after attending a "New Distributors Orientation" meeting (NDO) in which the importance of maintaining 10 customers per month was mentioned in the last presentation. Our plan mentions 10 customers but does not stress this as an Amway regulation - something I found out myself. In the plan the 10 customers are supposed to be generated from showing the plan and therefore nobody feels threatened by having to sell! This in theory should make the business self-funding even early on.

In essence the NDO presenter mentioned that the retail profits generated are NOT for the distributor to keep but are for the "overhead costs" most of which are in System Tools. The presenter is the managing director for a large corporation in South Africa and I have always tended to regard him as a good business brain worth listening to. I think he is a Ruby currently. This statement annoyed me intensely, quite why after two years and at that moment I do not know. It suddenly seemed to me that we go out there and do the work to simply plough it back into Network 21 coffers. It was at this point that I decided to investigate where the money goes once paid to Network 21. Incidentally the profit from 10 customers would be about R300.00 - R400.00. That is IF you can get 10 customers every month to spend R100.00 each. The prices of Amway products here are possibly more outrageous than in the USA. The worst is the bar of ordinary Amway soap at R20.00 Amway and little as R2.00 at the supermarket. Some of the household products are reasonably priced but still pricey. System expenses are R500 to R600 per month if you take the tape of the week and attend all functions. This does not include the leadership tape and the book program or transport. So to have the promised self-funding business actually requires hard successful selling to really cover all costs.

You do not mention much about Network 21 and Jim and Nancy Dornan. However the system appears to be identical in outline to the others you describe e.g. Yager. Most disturbing is that the pricing of tools looks identical and I therefore now suspect that the REAL money is not in fact from this source inside Network 21 as well. We always put our upline direct and diamond name on tickets. I did not get into this to make money that way. I therefore hope that Network 21 is different but I am not holding my breath. I have found the general tone of Network 21ers pretty good. No one appears to ever get upset with those who say no and I have seen no attempt at the cultish types of things that you have alluded to in your web site from other groups. In fact I have always been impressed at the caliber of speakers. However the pricing of tapes and tools matches the pricing for the systems that you describe and now I am furious to think that all the friendly upline advice and help may have just been an attempt to score commissions from tape and ticket sales. Jim Dornan's mantra after all is "tickets, tapes and apps". Perhaps I am being too harsh as they may not see it in the poor light that I now do. They may be as blinkered as everyone seems to be. I had not seen the bigger picture or considered the possibilities for misrepresentation until reading your site. I have emailed my upline with your web address and await a response with interest. I cancelled all standing orders for tapes etc as well so this will be a good test of your claims and my LOS integrity. I am hoping the much-vaunted Network 21 integrity will stand the test.

You do not seem to have much information about the Network 21 system, which I understood to be among the biggest. Yager is here in South Africa but N21 seems to dominate. Can I accuse Network 21 of the types of things you accuse other systems? The structure seems to be the same.

It is worrying to see people put their reputations on the line, even well respected people, when they stand up here in South Africa and support this system by telling us that Amway works for them.

After what you have written I wonder how many are faking it, how many are hiding the true source of the money and how many are just so duped they don't know what they are saying? Network 21 proudly emphasizes the importance of the integrity and reputation of its membership and leadership. The credibility these personal testimonials give the system as a path to success is at odds with your information and now my experience. There seems to be very little emphasis on securing a viable ongoing business unit and a complete focus on networking and the system. Either there is nothing wrong and all is truth and light, I am merely delusional, or these people are so completely duped themselves they do not know what's coming. Sadly I now believe that there is very little difference between what we have and what you describe.

I feel as if I am waking from a dream. I keep hoping that N21 is going to be proved to be different from the other systems that you describe but I am not holding my breath. I am a trained scientist once famous for my skepticism and cynicism. Could I really have been duped like this? I joined thinking that this was a franchising type of opportunity where my personal goals, which were definitely to run a part time business, would be supported. Slowly however the system tools, the monthly tapes etc, became the norm and before I knew it I had lost a good wadda doe (to quote Bart Simpson). The whole time we write down goals and work towards them but actually I think most of it was just lip service as the grand scheme has little to do with Amway. Could I be wrong?

The training offered on certain subjects has proved excellent and worthwhile but I have now lost about R15,000 to R20,000 in direct purchases alone. Officially I will be claiming R25,000.00 just for this year in losses on my tax form. So I could claim losses totaling R35,000.00 - R45,000.00. In summary I have spent 2 - 3 times more per month on tools than on Amway products. I still don't know why but I just woke up suddenly and thought to myself who cares about feeling good, mixing with the "right people" and dreams etc. Let the business depresses the hell out of me if I am making money then that is what I got in for. Losing money is just not good business sense in any language and I recommend your section on deciding when to cut your losses.

Dr. Jonathan Burke

  Scott,

This gentleman and his wife then met with us every other evening for the next week (talk about pressure) to sell us on the business. After watching a video and listening to a few tapes we were hooked and agreed to become an IBO. We paid our $100 and were very excited. I went to a meeting a few nights later where I basically heard the same stuff I had heard the previous week. Suddenly I began having some doubts about Quixtar-I think much of my skepticism and frustration stemmed from the fact that I was suddenly spending less time with my wife and my brand new little girl. As I grew more frustrated, I began questioning our new "friends". I wanted to know how successful the business had been for them. Despite telling me that the wife was able to quit her job and stay home with the kids, they were not welcoming of my curiosity and in fact called my question "a little strange." I felt as though they were not being open/honest with me. Perhaps in sensing my frustration, I felt as though I was being talked down to, that I shouldn't ask questions and that I should do as I'm told. Red flags went up after this conversation!! I sensed a game of mind control was being played...and I was the clueless pawn.

They met with us a few nights later to help us make a few of our first calls. We were encouraged to keep the conversation light and brief, even make up some excuse to get off the phone if need be. My call resulted in a fib to get off the phone to avoid questions that would require specific information. My wife's call resulted in cutting conversation short with a friend who had informed her that she and her husband just found out they were expecting their second child. We were told we did great because one of the calls concluded with setting up a meeting. I silently disagreed with their evaluation...I lied to a friend and my wife blew off wonderful news from a college friend. I decided I wanted to do some research and I came across your site and another good site. After reading the facts and personal accounts that sounded all too familiar (even after just one week), I knew what needed to happen. I went home to my wife and told her we were getting out of this thing tonight. I called our sponsors and said "This is not for us, we are done."

Hi Scott,

You know, from time to time I go surfing for new (revealing) information on AmQuix and just yesterday I stumbled upon your site. Hey - regardless of what's being said to the contrary, you've got a great thing going here. The site is awesome! I applaud you and respect you for your sticking your neck out there and letting the truth be heard. I think the best part about your site...the thing that caused me to stop and actually read some of the lengthy documents, was the fact that you have information of substance! Hard core facts, the numbers, the comparisons...the stuff that people (should) look at when approaching ANY BUSINESS!!! And while the circle-drawers keep coming back with crass remarks devoid of any real information, you seem to stay focused and on the subject with an amazing attention to detail. That is, the details that really matter - the numbers. Keep up the good work, buddy!

I was in for a little over 2 years. I, like most distributors, never made any REAL money. I was spinning my wheels and driving all over town (and out of town) to attend and do meetings...never making any real progress. I sponsored roughly 3 or 4 folks but the lady that sponsored me had a pretty big group...high turnover, of course. I've got friends and relatives who've been in for years and years and have still not made any significant progress and I think it's soooo sad. Like myself, they're just continuing to lose money and refuse to treat the business/system like a REAL business. Any wise business owner has a legitimate business plan before he launches a business and that business plan - if he wants to succeed - better include THE NUMBERS. Right about the time I got out (roughly 2.5 years ago) a few other friends/associates of mine got out as well. One fella even sat down and did the numbers himself (he was a Math major) and we knew that the shit didn't add up! Prior to that my upline had sat across the table from me in a restaurant one night during our "counseling session" and laid the figures out for me where tape sales are concerned. I was appalled and I knew at that moment that was not something I wanted to be a part of (huge tape sales profit, that is.) What also turned me off was when I expressed an interested in the development a substantial retail business (selling cleaning products on a commercial basis), my upline told me in no uncertain terms that "that's not what you want to do...you're just creating another job for yourself." Hell...I thought it was MY business!

But it wasn't hard to see that neither he - nor most of crossline cohorts - was willing to support those that wanted to do the business the RIGHT WAY...selling product.

I agree with you wholeheartedly...this thing can be done...IF it's done right, but the fact that nobody wants to sell anything just makes it one big wholesale buying club. I don't go so far as to call business a cult or anything, I just think there's a system in place that's a shameful abuse of a would-be decent business opportunity. I've always said that it could be a legit business IF you're gonna tell people UP FRONT just what the heck they're getting into. And that's a big "IF" that ain't hardly likely. If it's a tape, books and function business...FINE (there's nothing illegal or immoral about that in and of itself)...just let folks know what the deal is UP FRONT! That's where this whole thing turns sour...there's too much hush-hush, secretive, deceptive, concealing practices going on!

I jumped in the business with this mentality (and said so to my sponsor & upline, "it's all or nothing for me." I told them the day that I found myself half-stepping and just losing money buying products and tapes that I was OUT...and I held true to my word.

Meanwhile, there are associates that I really grew to love and care about whom I wish I could get to SEE IT!

The sad fact about the business is that once you're in deep...you lose the ability to view the business (or much else) OBJECTIVELY. You see how you're told to see, you hear what you're told to hear, you think how and what you're taught to think and on and on. I feel so sorry for them because most of them are decent, good-hearted, well-intentioned peoples.

People who are being exploited because they - like all of us - want the good life.

I've moved on and turned my focus to my J.ust O.ver B.roke, my education and wise investments. I have not given up on or allowed anyone to steal my dream...not even Amway/Quixtar. I just decided to find another vehicle to get me there. Amazingly, my finances shaped up considerably after I GOT FREE from the whole mess. I can see people as people again - creatures made in the image of a loving God - and not some walking dollar signs!

One last note: a few months ago I sent to some old 'associates' an attachment of a web page entitled "MLMSurvivors" or something like that...just trying to help them understand why I left like I did (my exodus was a pretty abrupt one after I saw the light.) Of course I figured I'd get cursed out or called a 95%er, loser or something...not quite...but one of 'em did email me back and asked that I take her name off of my email distribution list. I know I'm being lengthy here, but in closing, here was my reply back to her: (I hope you'll take the time to read it in it's entirety. [Sure thing, hon! Not a problem...let me guess, was it my informative email I sent the other day???

It's interesting that I sent that to a number of my former associates and 'friends' wondering who would be the first to get offended and come back charging after me. A few days passed...and yet nothing. Of course, I knew it wouldn't be long before something came of it, though. Certainly no malice was intended. I figured, hey, they ought to be mature and confident enough in what they're doing to examine things objectively.

I obviously forgot a few things. I forgot about the days and months I spent plunged into a world of subjectivity...when seeing things objectively would have been dangerous, when objectivity would impede my progress and minimize my profits. I forgot about the days when I, too, had little regard for he who saw differently from I, for those whose aspirations fell on another end of the spectrum. I forgot about the effects of a system that invalidated my 'real' dreams of charity, ministry and servanthood...a system that tainted the glorious mental visual rainbow that I held for God's people, each in his or her own character; each made in His image - His likeness, but their own differences. The system erased that rainbow and painted them all GREEN! I forgot the virtual pile of refuse where I - we - tossed these individuals who expressed an aversion to - a distaste in our flavor of freedom, however real or perceived. I forgot that I was slowly being robbed of the liberty to think for myself and determine, alongside my Heavenly Father, the course of my destiny. But I remember now and real freedom is truly blissful!

My sincere apologies if you, or those who probably encouraged to 'write me off', are offended but do know that my love and concern is with you all. Life is soooo short. Live your dreams, not your material desires. Decide now what you want to be remembered for and get busy engaging your efforts and energy towards it...that's what I did, and it made me a better person. Being broke is certainly not in my plans, my dreams have not gone anywhere...if anything they're sharper, more clear and most importantly, they reflect who I am and who Christ is in me...not what a system says I must do and be. I decided - for myself - that I had no genuine interest in marketing products and the counterproductive practice of making huge profits by selling tapes, books and functions (which is mostly what the system is comprised of) to those under me who were depending on me to help them in their pursuit of "success". I knew I'd been given a literary gift...a journalistic hunger and a profound love for children.

My innermost desire was to spend my life helping others using those gifts, thus I set out to do so. We must understand that God's purpose for our lives and His appointed time for each us to transcend from this life to eternal life WILL NOT WAIT UNTIL AFTER WE GET RICH!

When we began to see that, we can understand what is important and begin to live each day to the fullest!

Much love, many blessings and sweet peace!

XXXXX

P.S. Solomon obtained riches and material wealth WHILE HE WAS SEEKING WISDOM and DISCERNMENT...qualities of substance and permanence! Had he been spending his every waking moment pursuing the wealth itself, he probably NEVER would have been given it!]

May God bless you richly, Scott...

scott - I have been reading your site with great interest. thank you for putting it up. it is very informative along with some of the other sites I found. reading some of the experiences of other Amway distributors really hit home for me.

My husband and I were sponsored into the Amway business 10 years ago, after we saw the plan and got both very excited about the prospect of having a business of our own. It took us a few months to get a jumpstart, since we really didn't sponsor anyone in the first 4 months. By the 9th month we had gone 1000 PV, after a year we were 4000 pins. During all this time my husband spent an average of 30 to 40 hours a week driving all over the place, spending time with new prospects and our downline distributors. We swallowed all the vitamins, ate, slept and dreamt this business, read all the books, listened to all the tapes, were on standing order, I had an entire closed full of products, just to have on hand for product pick-up and although we spent a sizeable amount of money building this business, the month we went 4000, that monthly bonus check paid for a weeks worth of pay my husband lost on his job when he got ill. Things were going great, so we kept going. We drove 3 cars into the ground, kept showing the plan, kept building our business and stagnated at the 4000 level. In our 5th year into the business, my husband became seriously ill and had to undergo extensive medical treatment, which left him unable to continue working on actively sponsoring new distributors. At that point, we had personally sponsored 30 people, had a couple of legs about 3-4 in depth and one leg about 10 deep. Being taught in the AMO system, that no matter what the challenges, you just keep going, I told my husband not to worry and kept going out myself at nights, leaving my newly born baby boy at home with his dad after coming home from my full time job (I was out of the house 70 hours a week for my job alone), and worked on keeping at least the group together. We lost about half of our distributors due to the fact that my husband wasn't able to be out there showing the plan with them. I have no negative feelings towards our sponsors, as we are all human and sometimes don't quite see when and where our help is needed, and also because everything I was taught by them, was because of the absolute belief in the system on their part. I followed that lead and just kept going. Despite of all the challenges, our business reached the silver producer level with 9600 PV, breaking one silver producer in depth. This happened due to a promotion with Amway cookware, so everyone in the group had to have at least one set, if not two. Nonetheless that was a very exciting month that was followed by attending the go diamond weekend function in Orlando Florida. That was an expensive function to attend, especially when you have to fly in from up north, and you can only imagine that being a silver producer with one in depth wasn't all that profitable anymore as it would seem. We made less money then than at the 4000 level. Needless to say, the excitement didn't last for too long and we didn't hold that pin level. But I kept going. We hit it once, we can do it again, was the driving force for me. Meanwhile I kept picking up tapes for the entire group, half of the people for whom they were ordered never showed up at product pick-up to get their tapes in turn. I accumulated boxes and boxes of BSM's, mostly tapes, that I probably couldn't listen to in a lifetime. Because of what I was being taught by my upline, I felt guilty canceling standing order tapes, and even more guilty for even considering returning some of these materials for a refund. So I just kept picking up and cutting my losses. About three years ago, in order to boost up PV, our upline diamonds ran a promotion for the ladies in our group. Everyone requalifying at their pin level (and that was no small feat at that point!) would be rewarded with a special ladies' function at our upline diamond's house. I did as I was taught. Spent the entire month setting goals with the ladies in my group. Working from the bottom up, making sure everyone reached his or her goals. Most of them did, but some didn't, and when it came time to look at my own volume, I was just too far away to buy my way there with a pack or two of vitamin supplements. Funny as it may be, I was a bit disappointed, but at the same time I had built true friendships with the women in my group and was very happy for those ladies that got to attend that function for reaching their goals. I had taken this very seriously and gone on complete faith that it will all catch up sooner or later and that my efforts were not going to remain unrewarded. Like a true follower of the system.

And wouldn't you know it, a few days later, I got word from my upline direct and diamond, that although I personally didn't reach my goal, I had selflessly helped others to do so, and was invited to attend this function nonetheless. So, that night I got all dressed up, got into our fourth car in the business and drove an hour to visit my upline diamond's house. It was a very nice meeting and all those that set the good examples were duly recognized, including me. The meeting ended something like 1:00 am. I drove two of the ladies in my group home and went on my way. At that time it must have been around 2:00 am. I was alone in the car, not much traffic out and being a responsible driver, I was fully alert. However, that didn't stop some speeding young kids from slamming into me from behind, sending me on a spinning course on the highway and when after 2 impacts I finally had come to a stop facing traffic, they slammed into me again from the front. Luckily I escaped with what insurance companies call soft tissue injuries, but it took about six months to patch me back together and to this day I am missing some of my peripheral vision in my right eye from the impact of my head on the windshield. There went our fourth car. The next few days I spent in bed, pumped up on adrenaline, checking amvox every couple of hours, feasting on all the wonderful messages that had come in from upline, crossline, downline, but best of all, our upline diamond herself. But then we had to start rebuilding our lives. My husband still sick, me not able to work and being out on disability income, the Amway business still eating more money than spitting back out, I had to make some serious adjustments. Hitting my head somehow must have enabled me to think clearly. I canceled all those useless standing order tapes that were accumulating. Modified my product orders. I had a huge product room full of stuff, no need to order new stuff; I had all that to use up. And yes, I underwent some major guilt trip for letting my upline down. And it wasn't that they were actively doing it, it was just so instilled in me through constant exposure to functions and tapes and everything you hear spoken about within the britt system. Somehow we were able to get another car, don't ask me how, because our credit was totally overextended, so with that new car, I still went to product pick-up weekly, attended a few more seminars and meetings, but at that point my decision had been made already. I wasn't going to kill myself over making this business work. It simply wasn't worth it to me. We did stay in touch with some of the distributors in our group that had stayed in the business. We also stayed in touch with our sponsors. They were all wonderful people and I really always have considered them friends before business partners. However, contact shrunk to a minimum, since all we did was renew every year and order a few products here and there. By the way, it took me a couple of years using up the products I had warehoused in my home. At some point we started making our own decisions again, regardless of the Amway business. We purchased the home we had been living in, traded in the car for a better one, my husband, on the road to recovery, working two jobs and me working full time. We were paying our bills on time, making headway even. Doing quite well. We spent evenings and weekends together, I actually saw my children awake during the week and not when they were tucked in and sleeping. Life slowly returned to normal. We have recently sold that house with a sizeable profit, paid of most of our debts, moved away from the big city and purchase a new home in a new place. My husband is now working one job and I have built myself a small cottage business out of my home. I am home when my children are home. I get to clean my own house, cook my own dinners, do my own laundry, walk into my own kitchen and know where everything is, because that's where I had personally put it away. Life has taken on a different, more relaxed tone.

My point is, there is life after Amway, without bitterness. We have built beautiful friendships with the people in our group and we will love them, whether they build this business or not. Some are still actively working at it. We are still in touch with some of them, and also with our sponsors who we thought were wonderful people. They just totally believe in the AMO system. But it seems to work for them and I have no doubt that they will reach their desired levels of success, following in their upline's footsteps. When we were getting ready to move away, I took three huge cardboard boxes full of tapes, brought them to my sponsor and told her to pass them out to whoever wanted them. Asking for a refund would have only created bad feelings, and I didn't want that. We simply, quietly went away. I had since been contemplating of getting active in the business again, and in my recent internet search for open meetings in my new surroundings, I accidentally stumbled across your site and many others. After reading and reading for the past few days, I know now that if I ever get active again building my Amway business, it will be a very informed decision and I will be doing things a bit differently. I still do believe that it is a great business opportunity, I have come to like the products very much, most of them anyway, and being part of the system has, to a certain extent, taught me lots of things about a positive winning attitude that I can apply to whatever I am doing now. However, in hindsight I do know now that my husband and I were never meant to achieve high pin levels within the britt system. Our religious beliefs didn't fit the mold. And our political views didn't either. We weren't fanatic about being ultra-religious conservative republicans, as a matter of fact, more the opposite. The friendships that were established within the group were based on tolerance, open-mindedness and respect for the other person. When I was taught to make a friend, I took that literally and even though it didn't build my business, I am glad I did. My husband and I never ever took the view that not seeing the possibilities in this business when seeing the circles was a sure indication that this person didn't have a winning spirit, or much worse, was a loser. We had too much respect for other people and always fully understood and respected that although it is a great opportunity, there are other ways to live your life.

Some of the reasons we decided it wasn't for us were of course the ongoing financial challenges, spending more money on tools than making on product sales. The constant challenges we had with getting around in the only cars we could afford, very used and not very reliable. My husbands illness and finally and audit by the IRS who told us that we owed them taxes because we didn't make a profit in our Amway business in three out of five years, mostly disallowing some of the expenses we had. We went through the appeals process stating our case and proving that we actually did spend that money with the intention of making a profit. This issue was finally resolved early this year in our favor. Last but not least, as my husband wasn't accompanying me to functions we didn't have each other to fire on, and being at those functions I grew increasingly more aware of the things said and felt more and more uncomfortable with it. I had a big problem with the fact that ladies were supposed to wear dresses only at business functions, no pants. I had a big problem with the religious view impounded onto the masses of people. I felt more and more that while prayer is a good thing, it didn't have any place at a business meeting, as well as the music groups playing and "firing up" the crowd and political speakers etc.... in my view, if you were a business person, you conducted yourself in a professional manner and separated the fun from business, so that you can keep a clear head; a practice that to this day I keep up with my own business now. I guess the last straw was when very recently, I received an e-mail forwarded through our line of sponsorship asking each and every distributor to take a stand against abortion.

Yes, there is life after Amway. There are no hard feelings. We still love our sponsors dearly and are very thankful that they took a leap of faith in contacting my husband and showing us the plan. When we first saw this business, our marriage wasn't doing very well, and having new dreams and goals brought us closer together again. (Later into the business, of course, when things started getting rough and we started having "Amway discussions", it seemed like we were right back where we started, and it was a huge strain on our family life. backing off from the business was all we could do to fix those problems.) Nonetheless I believe firmly that the entire experience was something we had to go through in order to grow personally and I don't consider those years wasted. It did help me acquire a certain sense of appreciation for what we have accomplished even without the Amway business. We have achieved quite a couple of dreams that would have seemed impossibly for us before, when we were living in a small city apartment with more children than room, driving a car that could leave you stranded at any second, living from paycheck to paycheck and sometimes rolling pennies to buy another quart of milk until the next paycheck. Now we own a beautiful, large home in a nice neighborhood. My husband and I each drive our own car and they're paid for, our children are happy and well adjusted. I am able to spend time with teachers and other mothers to stay on top of what's going on in school, and many more things that I am not sure would be in the picture, had we continued pouring our hard earned money into more tapes and more books and more functions. Taking a step back and thinking clearly enabled us to make a few smart decisions on our part that helped us move up to a more comfortable life, so you see, there's two sides to everything. Amway taught us to dream. We took that dream and kept it up, regardless of whether Amway could give it to us or not. I do believe that even within the Christian faith, it is okay to want more out of life. I am not talking about sporting huge, clunky diamond rings and diamond studded Rolexes and sable coats, etc. I am talking about a life comfortable enough to have time to be happy. That's what we are now. We will of course continue to strive to better ourselves, even financially, although we fully understand that you don't have to be a millionaire to be just that. Happiness comes from within. To all you faithful Amway distributors out there within huge AMO organizations, please understand that. Don't work so hard on breaking down the people that have acquired this happiness in order to suck them into your business. Be a bit more open to their individuality. Greed is a very human thing and it's easy to fall into that. I know. I have been guilty of it. But then again, seeing a diamond lady with huge clunks of jewelry to me was just a symbol that if she had money left over for that, all her other needs were perfectly taken care of. That was all my husband and I ever wanted. So we treated the entire system like any step program out there. We took what we wanted and left the rest. Did we go diamond in the Amway business? No. Is my husband a winner? Yes, definitely! He is a winner, because he is able to put the past behind him and look to the future. He is a winner, because he respects another person's individuality and doesn't impose his views on them. He is a winner, because he is not afraid of doing what it takes to take care of his family. He is a winner, because he knew when enough was enough and moved on.

This is our story, scott, and the reason I'm writing this to you is because in the pages and pages I read on the internet, with other distributors' experiences, I have not found one person I could contact and discuss this with personally. That is something I would like to do. I have read stories of distributors that shared my views, and I have read stories of distributors that were very disillusioned with the Amway business. I would love to get in touch with some other Amway distributors or ex-Amway distributors for some sort of exchange. I am not out to do "business bashing", I just want to have some more feedback before I decide whether to finally quit this business completely by not renewing my distributorship or to find other avenues of building it in a way that suits me and the individual people in my group, and not my upline.

I really appreciate any input or help on this. Thank you,

Christine

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