Previous site visitors recant
Here is my running collection of e-mail from core distributors who at one time had an unbending faith in the Amway/Quixtar business model. They had written me at one time to tell me I was wrong. Over time they learned and experienced the business and economic realities of the bankrupt "networking" only business model, and the real reason for them to be in business - to buy tools from their upline. I'm sure the longer my site is up the more of these I will get. Some of them get rather long, but they are excellent examples of what a core IBO believes and is unwilling to see to keep their "dream" alive.
|
50-75 person downline 4 years in the business Showed the plan 10-15 times/month for 2 years Total business expenses amounting to over $24,000, and still not profitable, made a total of $9,000-$10,000 total in the business. Total loss $14,000 + time |
40 person downline 3 years in the business Showed the plan 5 times per week Claimed net profit of $1,200 per month, after quitting, admitted to a maximum of only $180 in one month. Claimed to have been able to drop second job since the Amway business was making money. |
Subject: Re: On eyed critiques don't cut it.
Scott,
I don't want to spend to much time writing to you as I have already wasted an amount of time reading your web page. I would like to put across a couple of points :
- You mock Amway for not telling the full story initially and yet you quote many tax court cases which are obviously out of context. It seems obvious that the individuals concerned are trying to avoid tax by overstating the expenses involved in their business.
- Your site lacks real evidence providing mainly personal opinion. I have studied at University like you claim to have with your letters after your name and anyone that has actually attended University or College knows that it is unproffessional to give an argument without backing it up with concrete evidence correctly referenced.
- My personal experience of Amway and a2k (no involvement in Quixtar or US Amway) has been fantastic and does not fit with your observations of the business.
Basically it all sounds like a sour grapes forum for those that saw the dream but didn't have the commitment to see it through, yes it does take work but no where near the work it takes to qualify for a government aged pension or superannuation.
Subject: Re: On eyed critiques don't cut it.-neither to blind Amway distributors
Hi A,
I will answer your items in your letter below.
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:28:59 +0930 "A "
Scott,
I don't want to spend to much time writing to you as I have already wasted an amount of time reading your web page. I would like to put across a couple of points :
Actually the site is geared for prospects. Distributors can read it to see current abuses. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not don't wear it. My site is geared to get the prospect asking questions and doing the numbers for themselves. Is there a problem with asking people to be aware of common misconceptions and to take a little more time to research the business?
- You mock Amway for not telling the full story initially and yet you quote many tax court cases which are obviously out of context. It seems obvious that the individuals concerned are trying to avoid tax by overstating the expenses involved in their business.
I do not mock Amway. I point out that many of their distributors are less then credible when giving out information. The tax court cases are available in full. There you will see many examples of "legitimate" business expenses that routinely overcome all gross margin in the business. Yes, many do overstate their expenses and this just exaggerates the losses claimed.
- Your site lacks real evidence providing mainly personal opinion. I have studied at University like you claim to have with your letters after your name and anyone that has actually attended University or College knows that it is unproffessional to give an argument without backing it up with concrete evidence correctly referenced.
What evidence do I lack that is not backed up or ascertainable? Prove something wrong I have said, or at least debate something? Any question can be posed to Amway as well but most likely they will decline to answer it. Sure there is opinion scattered in. Are the tax court cases not evidence? The are all available in their entirety. Are the numerous price studies not evidence? Are the experiences of numerous site visitors not evidence? Are the divorce court cases not evidence? Is the Probst site not evidence? There is evidence that the plan is shown with 1PV=$2, and it is easy to prove this is wrong. Every piece of evidence can be traced to its source if need be. The plan is shown with a distributor doing 100PV and the average IBO does 55PV. Any upline can tell you that.
It seems you just don't want to see the evidence which is all around you. Where is the evidence that Amway works besides seeing some diamond living high on the horse which is paid for with tapes?
- My personal experience of Amway and a2k (no involvement in Quixtar or US Amway) has been fantastic and does not fit with your observations of the business.
My site is only to help make prospects a little more skeptical and less blurry eyed to the dream. So if A2K is so great for you what is your current net profit off the products side of the business?
Basically it all sounds like a sour grapes forum for those that saw the dream but didn't have the commitment to see it through, yes it does take work but no where near the work it takes to qualify for a government aged pension or superannuation.
No, I was not stupid enough to take on a highly probable losing position. You did not debate one single point. The letter is typical of IBOs. They make broad generalizations but can't argue one single point other than "if you try hard enough it will work". Well dude if you pick up enough soda cans on the side of the road you can be a millionaire too.
What they write now:
Scott,
Thanks for replying to my email. I am beginning to see why people should be more careful in deciding to get into the business. Of the points that are in question I will say I agree that it is difficult to achieve the 100pv set out in the plan and there is a certain amount of letting people find out the facts for themselves at the same time as they are excited about the dream and not in a position to think rationally. I also have a suspicion that in Australia at least the business became saturated in about 1992 as there appears to be a lot of people go diamond in Australia between 88 - 92 and if you listen to tapes by Peter McKenna and Craig Deane you see that the business here remained at AU$200 mil. which when considered with an increase in product range and inflation that the business went backwards.
Since viewing your site after having some doubts and hearing doubts from people I met I have been able to think more rationally and am glad that I have taken the time to think things through. I do however wish you luck with your site and if there is anything you think I might be able to provide you with let me know. I do not feel as though I have given the business enough of a go to give a testimonial of my experience.
Follow Up 12/00:
Scott,
No I am not doing the A2K business thankfully. It dawned on me that when I saw the plan I was given the impression that families on average achieved 100pv a month. Working with the meagre amount of info available from Amway, mostly through people talking on tapes the business here is doing AU$200 Mil. per year with 100,000 members, I guesstimated a few figures like how much of the turnover was Amvox and Promotional events run by Amway, Delivery charges ( $8.90 for orders under 60pv) and also considered the membership fee which with 100000 equals about $5Mil. and came up with a figure of 30pv on average. This meant that instead of needing 75 IBO's to go direct it was more like 225 IBO's. Add to this the renewal rate of around 78% which means at the end of 12 months if I were direct I would need to replace about 50 IBO's. The renewal rate I claimed here is from memory I heard it on a tape by Peter Light where he claimed it used to be around 30% renewal and since the internet side of the business it has risen to around 78%. I don't know where he got the figures from as the renewals are done in September and the tape was made before Sept. and the A2K site was launched in March. If you are interested in which tape this info is on I am about to listen to the tape and can send you the title if you think the info might be worth publishing. I haven't told my direct I am not going to pursue the business any further.
What they first wrote:
Received: from xxxxxxx@aol.com
for <scott.larsen@juno.com>; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 02:05:44 -0400 (EDT)
What is the big deal about buying products that your are already going to buy, buy them from Amway, teach other people how to do that and make a profit? We buy our cheerios from Amway...ooooh that is scary, right? Get real.
The reason the system is needed is because people are naturally unmotivated. To become very successful in the Amway business you need the system to stay motivated. What is the big deal there? Doctors, Real Estate Agents and other professions go to seminars and listen to tapes but no one is saying they are being brainwashed.
Also, my sponsor is a silver direct, their sponsor is a founders direct, their sponsor is a founders direct, their sponsor is a Diamond, their sponsor is an Emerald, their sponsor is a Diamond, their sponsor is a Double Diamond.
That is a lot of success that I see just in my immediate upline. Also, no one in that line of sponsor has quit expect for one person. What do you say to that? You over generalize on everything and are hurting people who could make it work.
I doubt you will post this on your website.
What they write now:
From: xxxxxxx@aol.com
To: scott.larsen@juno.com
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:42:19 EST
I wrote to you last year (1999) because a new downline sent me your website information. At the time, my husband and I were heavy into "the business" for four years and weren't open to any information that may be negative.
Since then, many things have happened personally to us that caused us to stand back and take a look at our life.
Needless to say, our upline is not very happy that we have stopped going to open meetings, monthly seminars, product fairs, house meetings, and Artistry weekends. We were very "plugged in" and "leaders". Our sudden disappearance has made a big impact on upline, downline, and crossline. Many people have called us to guilt us into coming back. They think that Amway will somehow fix our problems that we face in our family. We disagree and decided that we would make our own decisions although we were being VERY pressured, to the point of feeling we were doing something terribly wrong. The time away, about a month now for me has opened my eyes to the time and money we were spending.
I am going to outline what we would spend on a monthly basis:
|
Tapes/Books |
100.00 (3 tapes a week and one book a month) |
|
Seminars |
50.00 (If a local seminar) 100.00 (major seminar for 2 people) 500.00 (airfare for 2 people) 100.00 (hotel for 2 people) |
|
Opens |
40.00 (5.00 x 2 people 4 x a month) |
|
Telephone |
120.00 (our bill went from 180.00 to 60.00 after quitting) |
|
Product |
300.00 |
So, the average spent a month on the basics, our upline said was required to succeed, was between $610 and $1,260 a month depending on if a seminar was here, or out of town. As I write this I am amazed that we did this without question. What I did not include was, gas, wear and tear on our vehicle, dining out at seminars and meetings and money spent on tools that we used to show people the business plan. We nearly lost our home, due to the mounting credit card bills and have had to claim bankruptcy to get out of the hole we are in. I wouldn't believe this story if I hadn't lived through it.
God help anyone deciding to get in the Amway business. The system will suck you dry.
We showed the plan 10-15 times a month for at least two out of the four years. This is a conservative estimate (we probably showed more than that).
We spent approx. $24,000 during the four years. This is also conservative, as this does not include cost of product. The total amount of money made during the span of four years is approx. between $9000-$10000.00. We were told that anyone could build this business because the cost is so low to get into a "business of your own".
We have two or three couples that are actively building the business out of the 50-75 that we have signed up in our group. My husband and I are in the process of sitting down with each of them to tell them the real reason they don't see us at weekly opens anymore. We will tell them to look at all the anti-Amway sites that are available on the net. Each one reminds us of the crap we have been through. My husband was told that the devil was turning us away from building the business.
I can't tell you how much we appreciate all the sites of people's stories. It has been a support through all the deprogramming we are experiencing.
To: scott.larsen@juno.com
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:59:32 -0500 (EST)
I am myself an Amway distributor and I agree with some things you have written and disagree with a lot of things. Concerning the 30% discount, some things are cheaper than at Wal-Mart and some things are more expensive. However, Wal-Mart doesn't send me a check every month for shopping there either. Their cheaper prices on some items disappears anyway with the cost of gas to drive back and forth instead of getting it delivered to my front door. The point of buying the products from Amway when you are a distributor is this: if you owned your own business, would you shop from it or go to your competitors to shop? You would go to your own, obviously.
I really don't see how a business that is debt free and makes 7 billion dollars a year could possibly be a scam. If so- they have done one hell of a job! It is also funny that when the FTC took Away to court the judge threw the case out saying that Amway was the best, most ethical form of entrepreneurship he had seen in America. Of course though, you leave that out on your web page. When you can explain to me the amount of millionaires produced by Amway every year if it doesn't work then please do. All I know is that before I was introduced t Amway, I was working two jobs and now I am only working one, 15 hours a week. It feels pretty damn good to not have someone else telling me when to be at work, how long I get for lunch, or when I can clock out. I got pretty tired of working for someone else and making them rich. Now I can and am making myself rich and in turn free of money. Maybe you should look again at Amway and get your facts straight.
Sincerely, Alicen
To: scott.larsen@juno.com (SCOTT A LARSEN)
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:20:38 -0500 (EST)
Well Scott, what do you do for a living? For the hours you spend, how well are you compensated? What is your company name, and where are your income statements? We work hard in our business, and we make a very good living. How long were you in the business? How many plans did you show every night and for how may years did you do this? We do not mean to pry, but we question your consistency. If you put as much time into the business as you do bashing it, you might realize the true benefits. We question your integrity as we do the others who give up on something they never even start. Amway is no overnight success story as no other business is, and if you can prove your commitment to it in the past. OOPS, YOU QUIT YOUR business didn't you? But if you can prove your commitment, then we respect your word. We, however, have never heard of any successful business that was neglected and quit.
-Sean and Alicen
To: scott.larsen@juno.com (SCOTT A LARSEN)
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:11:25 -0500 (EST)
Well Scott, you speak of an economic basis. Are you an economist or what? Obviously the average distibutor(9 out of 10) loses money after investing in his or her business. But I know for a fact that these nine out of ten do almost nothing to increase profitability(8-15 hours a week, 2-5 years). This is not Wal-mart because Wal-mart pays for television advertisement. Amway pays us to advertise. They, however, do not pay us to sit around and bitch about nothing happening. You have to do the 8-15 hrs. per week every week for 2-5 years like they tell you. Amway is not a job, it is an opportunity that you must capitalize on in order for it to work. You do not get paid to show up at a seminar. You do not get paid to listen to a tape. You get paid to get off your ass and promote, period. Most people expect to get paid for merely signing up and learning through the tapes and seminars; but hardly any of these people use what they know to make a living. Your nine out of ten is exactly right!!!!! I also know 9 out of 10 people at regular jobs get shafted as well. You can honestly tell me Wal-mart is giving their billions to their employees? Do they even give their employees or customers an opportnity to make an unlimited income for more work? Alicen worked there and made $5.60/hr. That right there my friend is a scam. Those Waltons are loaded for sure, and they are not giving any to me for promoting their store. I doubt your company is even giving you your fair share. This is a word-of-mouth opportunity, and you are right. The average person does not make money in Amway. I also know the average person is not making a good living doing what they do now, or they would not join to begin with. I will net about $1300 this month in SCAMWAY. I have been in the business for three years, and that kit sat in the closet for 2 years 10 months of that three. I got off my ass last month and guess what, what they tell you really happens. You make money. Nothing in life will be handed to you.
Well I won't say nothing, but I do know you have to pay for even a losing lottery ticket. Life is comfortable for most people, and Amway is something different. That is why most people do nothing and lose something. I also know of thousands of businesses that cost much more than Amway to run, and they fail too. I invest about $150-200, and I am no diamond. But we will talk turkey when I am. I do not even make as much as you in stocks, but I am not in stocks. I do, on the other hand, make more money in Amway than you. If you want to judge Amway by other peoples lack of committment, then you should call yourself a scam too because there are people that lose money in the stock market too. Why?
Because they fail to do their homework and use it to their advantage. When you show the plan six nights a week like I do for 2 -5 years straight, then YOU can say Amway does not work, but YOU HAVE NOT AND PROBABLY WILL NOT. The average person is not successful, in Amway or in anything else!
-Sean and Alicen
To: scott.larsen@juno.com (SCOTT A LARSEN)
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:33:13 -0500 (EST)
Scott I also wanted to mention that I could give a rip about Wal-mart's stockholders. They put in money to get money out. They also have no control over how Wal-mart does. The employees are still getting screwed.
You see, Amway distributors all have the same opportunity. They, however, are not employees and do not have to do anything. You are comparing apples to oranges. You do not get paid to sign up, buy tapes, buy books, or to recruit other people. You get paid to move products.
You should know this. Those items, whether somebody makes money off of them or not, are there to help. You mean you have never spent any money on education of any kind. If you say no you are lying. The support materials help in the duplication process of this business. Somebody will make money off everything you do in this society, it is capitalism for crying out loud. Your boss make way more off you than you realize.
Your training and education made someone else rich while giving you the knowledge to succeed at the same sort of activity. If the support materials bother you, there is no requirement to use them. But would you not sell information if you were successful in something. You bet your ass you would. You must think you know more than the diamonds or something. I forgot, you are not a diamond and they do know more about Amway than you. That is all. You know that education is important in anything you do. The model does not need to change, the 9 out of 10 lazy whiners need to change their ways. You do not have to buy any tapes or books so thereis no margin of loss. Only if you keep doing nothing and spending money on these things you will go negative. I went to college for 4 years. Whether I choose to use that knowledge and get off my lazy ass is my choice. I spent $35,000 to do so and dropped out.
It is a choice and you know it Scott. Sure the margin is negative if you do zilch. Hello. You are quite the genius.
To: scott.larsen@juno.com (SCOTT A LARSEN)
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:15:50 -0500 (EST)
I hate to say it but you act like everyone else. You can't possibly tell me you know for sure that your sponsor shows the plan six nights a week when you never stayed in the business yourself. When you have done what they say to do for 2-5 years then and only then can you truly say that it does not work. You can never judge your success by all of those who quit something they never even started. You have failed to address the issues I have put forth Scott. Your 9 out of 10 defense means nothing because you do not get paid to be a distributor. You get paid for promotion. You have the option to do nothing or something in this business. Your 9 out of ten do nothing, and yes they have failing businesses. But does this not hold true with any business Scott? Going to meetings and spending money on educational tapes is easy for most people. This is the most that most people actually do because they do not have to talk to people to listen to a tape or go to a meeting. That part of the business is easy, but everyone knows when they see the plan that to make money you have to expse the plan to many people. You know this Scott. Why do you try to give those who do work hard a bad name?
You have never even given it a chance. It sure will not happen overnight. You can't judge something from the outside. I advise you take a good look at what you say and why you say it. Are you jealous?
Are you mad at the world because you are going to have to work for the rest of your life? What is it Scott? It took you four years.to get where you are in your business. If you would only put your negatives into forward motion, you may find it would work for you too. I listen to many people every week tell me this is a scam. All I can say to that person is prove me wrong. You can't prove me wrong because you are making empty claims Scott. People are scared to talk to people and you know they do not show the plan every night for 2-5 years. I guarantee they do not. For if they did, they would see the truth. I usually do not defend the business because I know those who make fun are going to work 40-50 in the long run. I work no other jobs. I build my business every night. Yes Scott, every night. I am not wealthy, but I am not in this business for monetary reasons only. I merely enjoy coming and going when I please. My business is growing at an astonishing rate because I bust my ass. I only want to be free of the worries of money. I want security. If you want to work your whole life answering to somebody else, then that is fine. On the other hand, do not ruin other's lives because you think you know a whole lot about this business. You don't Scott. Try me buddy! Are you up to working your ass off for unlimited time and wealth? Maybe I will come to visit you in four or five months and we can see face to face how much you really know about Amway!!!!!!!!
From: SCOTT.LARSEN
Hi Sean,
Sure you can make it work by recruiting more people into the system, except you forgot to address my point that each new incremental distributor brings more expenses to the group than he brings as gross margin, on the "self-consumption model" with little or no retail sales. The numbers just don't support it. You are just using the people who you know will never get off their asses as your "retail" customers. Hell, as long as these losers keep buying the product, at least you have enough gross margin to keep it going and make money. If you weren't constantly motivating and brainwashing the hanging-on loser there would not be enough margin for the successful guys like you. Sure you're busting you ass, I never said you didn't. One has to overcome all the business inefficiencies in the business. The Amway products are just so great they sell themselves. That's why the 7 million quitters still buy the products, NOT. I guess they are all idiots for not seeing value in the product. Hell, the only reason distributors buy the stuff is because it is "their business". They many not really like the stuff. If they didn't buy it who would? All their retail customers? Ya, right.
Apples and oranges? If you can invest money in Amway, you can invest it in Wal-mart stock. If you can work mega hours showing the plan you work mega hours to buy Wal-mart stock.
I've paid for education, one needs to make sure the investment to return ratio is good. Let's see a distributor spends $600/year on "education". Well guess how much that distributor brings as income to the group at 200 PV/month. Yep, you guessed it $600/year. It seems all the gross margin brought to the group by that guy just got spent in education. So what sense does it make that each distributor spends $600/year-in and year-out on education when his personal buying can at the most generate $600 in revenue for all other distributors. My employer could not stay in business and pay $1000/year in education if I only brought in $1000 of gross margin to his business every year. He would go broke. So why is the amway model any different?
I spend about $400 on books about the market. I don't spend hardly anything anymore, I'm sure neither do the big pins. They spend money on toys showing their downline the dream.
Well when the growth rate in Amway sales kicks up, then I know you guys will be doing good.
As soon as Amway US Sales growth goes to 25%/year for 3-4 years I will sign up. Then I know they have something good. Will you sponsor me then?
From what I can tell from what Amway says, sales for 1997 in the US were 1.8 billion wholesale (distributor relations told me this), and from the latest USA today article US 1998 sales grew 30% of total sales. Since Amscam uses 25% markup to get to estimated scamway Retail prices 5.7*.3*(1-.25)=1.28billion, it seems like US sales growth rate is in the wrong direction to make everyone successful, let alone a few.
Which points did I not address?
I can also say I don't give a rip about Amway's millionaires. No body can prove that one anyway. It is a great "Amway Urban legend" however! Sure the employees at Wal-mart don't make much, but what has that to do with Amway? If they wanted to make more they would be doing something different, just like any other way to make money in this world. Oh, ya, they could be doing the Amway opportunity, but those aren't they type you want to recruit anyway. They haven't already demonstrated that they can get off their ass. They turn out to be projects!
Actually I ran some numbers on GE, and it turns out for one of the most profitable companies in the world, on a profit/sales ratio, that GE makes in profit slightly less than what it pays and $11/hour worker. That is a normal industrial wage. The worker makes $28,000 with benefits and GE made about $26,000. And GE had to invest capital, which the worker used. Capital and labor make profit. Don't forget Employers have to invest in capital. So when you consider higher paid employees, GE is making even a smaller fraction. So in this very good case where my boss makes 1/2 of what I do, way more? How much is way more? I guess you never ran the numbers your self.
Hey the support materials don't bother me. The business can't go on without them. Without a good motivational tape, who would keep pushing the products and recruiting. You have to have them, but it is unfortunate that the mark up is so great. This keeps distributors overhead high so they are in the red longer. The key to making money in the business is to get in the tools business. Then your real business becomes selling and teaching the Amway business, and not so much the Amway business. This is a slick concept. My distorted ethical up bringing will not allow me to take advantage of that situation where I have a bunch of losers that I know will never amount to anything but they keep begging to by my motivational tapes. Why don't you tell those losers to give it up instead of keeping on telling them they will make it? Why? Because it is these whining losers who are your customers. They are brainwashed to buy your crap even though you know they never have a chance. But that doesn't matter to you, as long as you sell them stuff. You guys are just taking advantage of the weak, whom will not amount to a hill of beans. If you didn't have all the whining losers, how many customers would you have then? You just lost 9 out of 10! Maybe that's what web pages like mine are doing. They are getting the whining losers to face reality that they will never make it big in Amway because they won't give it what you are giving it. This way the whining losers can get on with working 40 hours/week, and save a little money rather than pump it into the Amway buying pyramid and tools. You guys just guilt them into hanging on to buy from themselves because they have been brainwashed that quitting is losing. At least if they don't quit buying then they haven't given up completely. If they quit, who will be their friends? They can't turn back to their non-Amway friends then they would show them that they are failures, and they probably already alienated them when they wouldn't join the great Amway opportunity. So they stay in as your dedicated base customers because you are their friends, at least until they quit, then they need to find new ones.
Oh, yes I'm jealous, not. Why should I be?
I'm not trying to give those who work hard a bad name. I just rebuttal the unfounded myths perpetuated by zealot distributors who expound with tons of hype, and no facts.
Work for the rest of my life? Even a Diamond doesn't up and out. A diamond must still work quite hard to keep his empire from crumbling. All the big pins still work, just their business. Unlimited wealth, unlimited time, boy you have a big dream especially when Amway sales are falling! Oh I forgot you have a dream, the business facts don't matter. There have been hundreds of super-motivated people like you before, and many of them blow out too. So did you really report $14,000 (1,200*12) on your schedule C as business profit, or did you just "gross" that and report lots of expenses so as to not pay taxes?
It doesn't matter how much I know about Amway. I know the numbers and they don't add up. No matter how much Amway distributors wish their sales to increase, and everybody to be rich and famous, the negative trend can be easily seen in the data.
I know business you know dreams. Sometimes those with dreams can ignore the facts and beat the facts. You are a go-getter, I'm sure you will too.
Good luck, the market is really embracing Amway, as evidenced with the Amway sales drops. You'll have to redouble your efforts swimming against the tide.......
I'm make you a bet. I bet you $100 cash that you won't be diamond in 6 years total in the business. This will give you an incentive to really go for it. If you make it, then I know I have motivated one guy to be successful. It's only a hundred bucks, I can afford it, and if you are a millionaire that would make me happy that your family's life style has improved. It will show that despite the crappy odds, a normal guy can do it!
Charleston is a great town, nice place to visit. You can even write the trip off as and expense. Just don't bring a gun. I'm not into violence. If you bicycle, I can show you around. You can collect your $100 bucks when you come, and we can walk the beaches (of Charleston) together.
Well I got to go and get on the net and set up my trades for tomorrow. I have to set up my plan instead of show the plan, ha, ha fun with words. I'll tell you what, when you get that million and I lose my $100 bucks, let's talk. I'll show you how to invest your million, and make even more, and not lose it to the sharks. I love helping people that want to help themselves, even if I make no money off of them.
Take care and best regards to Alicen
What they write now:
To: scott.larsen@juno.com
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:36:11 -0500 (EST)
Hey Scott, a while back I sent some e-mails in which I argued with you about the business. I still feel the Amway op. is a great vehicle, but I apologize for the mail. I disagree on a few issues, but you are totally on with the AMOs. I was unaware of the deception involved here, and I was sucked in like the rest. These people are feeding off a pool of millions who will buy BSMs but will never make it. These guys make money no matter who succeeds. They told me not to reinvent the wheel.
Your site actually made me look into the business a whole lot more.
Thanks. This business can be done without the system, but that also means without the upline's help. I started to ask a lot of questions and they back-doored me and went right into my downline so I would not say anything to "ruin their dreams". Yeah right.I was, however, prepared, and I taped a conversation with my direct. I have tape of him saying he does not enforce the retail sales rule because he does not feel like messing with it. We know the real reason for that. You have saved my butt. Thanks. Who should I give the recording to. The Attorney General? I have several for back-up. Would you like a copy?
The funny part of this recording is that I only called the direct to tell them I wanted to get off the tapes, and he spent an hour and a half trying to convince me otherwise. He also told me not to tell my group of 40+ distributors the real reasons I wanted to leave the business. No surprise, and because of your site I had the recorder ready. This guy was unbelievable, no actually he was pretty good at having an answer to everything I said. What a crock of shit. The tool biz is a pyramid because there is no chance for a beginner to make money like there is on the products side of the biz. This guy tried to work me for that long, and I ONLY WANTED TO STOP THE F--KING TAPES. The brainwashing is felt by myself now that I can see the light. I truly apologize for slandering you and your site. I now realize you are doing a great service to those who are already in like myself, and to those who are merely looking. I need your help, and I understand if you tell me to shove it. But I now stand for the cause you promote because I was merely a product of the cult when I argued with you. These are some greedy bastards, and they will do anything to get the cash. What can I do to help. I am a very ethical person, and that is why this makes me sick. I fell to my knees with the manipulation of these pros. They are good, and they will continue to work this scam. The Amway scam needs to be cleaned up, and I truly believe in the products side of the biz like any other opportunity. Something needs to be done to help people like me who have gotten washed clean of my own good judgement. The funny thing was that I rejected the system for three years, and I gave in because I needed help, and they would only give it to me if I followed the "system". I now know why thanks to you and many others. I commend you on your mission. Thanks
To: scott.larsen@juno.com (SCOTT A LARSEN)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:43:09 -0500 (EST)
Hi Scott! This is Alicen. How have you been since we last chatted in May or so? I hope you are doing very well. Things have been pretty crazy around here lately, as you probably know. It is pretty weird that in a couple of days one's whole life can change. Sean was totally doing the business hard one day and then decided to quit the very next. At first we were so mad and felt like all our hopes and dreams had been shattered; however, we realize there are so many opportunities out there for us!
The thing that got Sean thinking about what this business really is was the fact that Amway sent out a pamphlet about the rules of the business and in it, it said that you must have 10 retail customers. It said that they could ask at anytime for you to prove that you did and if you couldn't show proof then they would take your bonus checks away. So Sean called our direct and talked to his wife and she told Sean that they ignore the rule and for us not to worry about it. Sean then called our diamond and he told us the same thing! Then Sean started looking on the internet and he found a very enlightening site about the tool scam by an emerald named Jeff Probst. Everything he said totally described what we were being told and how this constant brainwashing about the system had dictated our thoughts and actions. That is all we ever would tell anyone- get 75 people on SOT's (tapes of the week) and 50 people to a function and you will be direct. Why did we tell everyone this? Because that is all our direct ever told us and we never realized the real intentions behind it. Lots of money for him! Anyway, we talked to everyone in our group and it actually made some people even more excited to know that when they reach direct and above thay will be making so much money from tools! Pretty sad!
We aren't sure what we are going to do as of right now. Sean is really wanting to direct sell so that we can pay off all the debts we have racked up on credit cards from functions, tools, and products. We are moving to Colorado this coming year so right now all we are going to worry about is getting our money together so we can move. I really feel bad for Sean because he worked so hard on his business. I actually never got into it at all. I saw how it controlled Sean's life from the beginning and had resentment and hatred towards it from the start. We about broke up numerous times because of it. He just didn't care about anything but building it the whole time. Then he would feel like he couldn't be with me anymore because all I did was bring him down. All he would thnk, eat , sleep, and talk was Amway/Quixtar and I just couldn't handle it. So I hate to say it, but it was a relief when he figured all this out. Maybe now our life can return to normal. Well, it was good to hear from you again and hope to hear from you soon!
Take care, Alicen
To: scott.larsen@juno.com (SCOTT A LARSEN)
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:47:02 -0500 (EST)
Hello again Scott. To answer your questions, the pamphlet was from
Amway and the rule is to have at least 10 retail customers or 50 pv from customers. I don't know how we could send you the pamphlet through web tv. Do you have a fax number? Most of the people in our downline do not even understand what we are talking about when we told them about the abuses if the tool system. We would like to try and build a business without the system, however we don't really feel like very many people would be interested in Amway products because they are so overpriced. Also, Sean does not want our direct to have all the volume we would produce from retailing. We are looking into other network marketing companies at this time.
Yes, Sean was fibbing when he told you he made that much. It is pretty bad that we had 40 or more people and the most we have made was $180 a month.
The real money in Amway is from the tools and you don't get that until you go direct.Alicen
