Direct Distributors Speak Out

Story 1 PSSD

Story 2 PSSD

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Story_5 Gold Direct

Story 6 Emerald

 Story 7 Q-12

 Story 8 PSSD

Story 9

 Story 10 Ruby

 Story_11 Gold Direct

 Story 12

 Story 13 Ruby

 Story 14 UK Direct

 Story 15 PSSD

 Story 16 PSSD

 Story 17 Silver

 Story 18 Ruby

 Story 19 PSSD

 Story 20 Found. P

Story 20 Pearl

     

Last update June 22, 2004

Dexter Yager admits most Silver and Gold Directs aren't making it. Gold and Silver Directs are broke 22K .mp3 file

Scott, I just have to write and tell you how impressed I am with your website. I have visited it often since Oct of 99, when I effectively pulled the plug on our Amway/Quixtar business. You have a great deal of information, 99% of, which is accurate, and you should be commended for exposing this business. I write to you to pat you on the back, inform/warn others, and extract some satisfaction by telling our story.

Our experience begins in 11/94 when a co-worker of my wife's husband, whom I had only met once, called and asked if I was interested in looking at ways to make money - I said sure, and he scheduled a meeting at our house the following week. This day rolled around and my wife called me to cancel the meeting, but I said we should stick with it. So this couple showed up, Wed night, when we were running our kids to church, and they were dressed in suit, dress, etc. We thought that was hilarious, even took a picture of them. We waited a while and made small talk, and then the doorbell rang. In comes their upline (soon to be ours too), a middle aged guy. I did not know he was coming. Anyway, after brief intros, we sat down and went through the plan. I confronted him directly, and said 'lets cut to the chase - is this Amway?' - I don't remember how he answered, but we thought enough of him (college professor) to go to an open meeting the next night at a hotel. The guy who did the plan that evening was an emerald at the time, now a diamond in the organization, of which we were/are a part. He basically did a standup comic routine, and in the last 15 minutes scribbled the old 6-4-2 pie chart plan, and we essentially did not know what we saw, but knew a lot of people seemed to care about us and there were a lot of people in that room. So, we got our kit, had a couple of very unsuccessful meetings, and started very slowly, did not sponsor anyone for 4 months. But when we did, we took off, and reached the silver (7500 pv) level in 11 months after starting, and recognized a net profit that month of approx. $1500. - I should tell you that I have a BS in accounting. So, we were wide and profitable, and had no retail sales, as you might expect. Our upline, who had shown us the plan, was at the PSDD level for 8 years, and ran a bunch of product promotions with 25% PV kickbacks for his entire group, which enabled us to hit silver, break a 4000 leg and 2 1000 legs, and for this PSDD to hit Pearl. High times, but they didn't last. We had to stretch the next fiscal year to hit PSDD, which we were pressured to do, and felt like we should so the 'group saw us moving on'. All along, ever since I started, I showed the plan minimally 15 times/month, and showed 90 plans in 90 days twice; my wife did Artistry sessions for her group, and we were recognized by our upline Pearl and Diamond for our leadership and always hit promotions. Obviously, on the system in all aspects. We hit PSDD in 8/96, broke a silver leg (they bought 8 ClearTraks and several sets of cookware), went to Ada in 4/97, and this silver couple, who had enormous egos, stretched and bought their way to PSDD in 8/97. (They were about $400,000 in debt before the business - I can only imagine now). We started our journey towards Founders Direct in 9/97, and hit that 12 month qualifying pin in 8/98. But at a tremendous cost - our business did not grow, we ended up buying thousands of dollars worth of Double X - great PV for relatively low cost (HA!) But we got a $5000 check and one for $10000 and a trip to Scottsdale AZ, with the big guys in Amway. Felt like big stuff. Then came Quixtar, and with my computer background and the new name, I thought this was the answer - we sponsored many, but only a few stayed around. The Quixtar business was obviously not the answer either - but we stayed with it. Then I needed to get a new job, in the fall of 99, and really started evaluating the business from a logical, not emotional viewpoint. That's when we pulled away and were shunned by our up and downline 'friends' - who 'loved' us.

I showed hundreds of plans, put tens of thousands of miles on several cars, stayed up until ridiculous hours - I have incredible stories about my experiences. My wife and I achieved what less then 1% of the people to have ever been in Amway have done. We were Founders Directs, very successful (in many eyes), but you see how it was done. I have been to my upline Diamond's house many times, to my upline Double Diamond's island twice (reward trips - loyalty, productivity), YNMI (Yager Network Marketing Institute in 12/96 (you don't go there unless your upline diamond pays your lodging and thinks you have diamond potential. I have done several open meetings, and my wife and I have spoken at countless functions.

When I took a long look at this thing, here is what I saw - we sponsored 26 couples/singles over almost five years. Very good - we went Eagle twice (5 personal, 10 depth in 90 days). From a high of 10000 pv in 8/97, we were at around 2500 pv, and are between 1500 - 2500 now (with Quixtar). Of the 26 'franchises' we started, we had pv coming in from 5, and most of it from 1 leg. Half of the 26 sponsored no one, and quit quickly. Most of the rest sponsored someone, then the whole group died out. So could you say that I was successful, or the business was great, or the system was so good? Obviously not. Also, it was clearly not profitable for anyone. Only after I missed my first meeting last September, then felt the wrath of my upline Emerald (former Pearl) did I realize that it was all wrong. I got the info about the tools rebates (which were never big $ at PSDD - .50 per tape and 10% discount on books), and realized how the downline was being screwed, and I was continuing the myth, while helping to line the big pins pockets. We were told by our upline emeralds, who I once truly loved and admired, that we could not build the business successfully and have much of a family life. We have two kids, and told them we wanted to spend more time with them and build the business more slowly - I said I wanted to volunteer at my church, and they were offended that we had made decisions without counseling them first. So, we pulled the plug, on Amvox, and pretty much everything else, and now all we do is buy a couple of products, and receive a couple of hundred dollars per month from what is left of our group, which once had doctors, accountants, former Dallas Cowboys players.

I look back on the experience and wonder - what if? There have been good experiences - I have learned much about leadership, and have a very good job as a result of what I learned. We traveled much. But no one who 'loved us' has called us, except for one or two people downline. We know our values were/are correct when we quit. I have since come to research the business, read Steve Hassan's book Combating Cult Mind Control (it exposes the true cult aspects of the business unbelievably well), and know that we were not just in a cult, by virtue of our pin, we were cult leaders. To say that it was not profitable, even at the levels we were at is an understatement. We have shown losses every year we've been in. It is not an inexpensive business, particularly if you attempt to build big.

Here is my perception. Amway/Quixtar is not a good business because the products are not competitively priced and aren't that good - you would have an incredibly hard time building a good retail business. When you network you are at the whims of an AMO which has cult tactics - if you need proof, just research the other websites. It is designed to be, as you said, a negative sum game, in which the few profit at the expense of hundreds/thousands. I believe the recent layoffs/cutbacks attest to the fact that Amway and its AMO's are their own worst enemy. As to the business aspects of this endeavor, if you analyze it like a business, and do not get emotionally caught up in it, like the AMO's want you to, you will see it clearly and not get involved.

My wife has experienced a lot of pain because of the loss of 'friendships' but I am not feeling that way. When I see my former upline emerald, I see deceit, lies. I just want to warn people who are considering this, stay away. And I want the business to go away too, and I believe it will soon.

Please do not print my email address. Thanks for your efforts, you have obviously put a lot into your website, and it is remarkable how accurate it is.

 10/10/00

Finally getting around to responding to you - I like the changes you have made to your website very much! Also, Ruth Carter's looks very good too. Of late, I have been very busy with work, which goes well, and enjoying FREEDOM (from stupid meetings, upline badgering, etc. - as a former emerald told me - 'now you know what real freedom is'. Also, with our bonus checks from Am/Quix coming in due to volume from our remaining downline, the business has never been more profitable, now that we don't have to shell out the system expense, or waste the time in it.

I have been cut off from the info flow of our upline since 9/30/00 (his own website - what a scam - 10.00/month! - I elected not to resubscribe to his site), from emerald through double-diamond, so can't tell you everything that is going on. But will give the most current - at our double diamond's free-enterprise day, he had one new Founders Platinum, one new silver, and 7-8 new 2500's and roughly double that number of 1000's. He had a few new eagles (although they downgraded the requirements to be an eagle to 3 new personals from 5). All in all, it appears it was a very bad fiscal year for the business from this group. Please know this, I would love to name names, but fear of retribution to me or my family prevents this. I know of people who have been threatened physically for attempting to disclose the tools scam. Our life has turned around very well, even though I continue to be mad as hell about the whole thing. I have not seen the latest PCdata online stats about the Quix site, but I have to believe the downward trend is continuing. Certainly there has not been significant growth in the Partner Stores, which were highly promoted. As we could say for those considering this business, its kind of like hitching your cart to a dead horse.

I did the research, and do not have a chart which shows expenses to match to pin levels, etc. as you requested. I do know this - as I mentioned, we sponsored 26 front line legs in 5 years, and were considered leaders, moving on, speakers at functions, etc. From those legs, one went silver and then PSDD even though they bought the pin both times, and we had 5 other legs hit 1000 PV over that period of time. Only had one other eagle, besides myself - that was the silver we sponsored. So it is safe to say that everyone else (at a lesser pin) lost more - they were not as wide as us. It is true that directs generally are the first line indentured servants and are expected to set the pace for their group by being the first to buy the newest tools, etc. Their overhead is generally quite high, and generally we don't get significant tool rebates. (ours was .50 per tape and 15% rebate on books). Expense can be very high relative to income at any pin level though - except diamond. I remember my upline diamond telling me that he and his wife got paid 5,000 to go speak at a weekend function for another diamond. If you are an EDC or above it goes up. As to other expenses, when Quixtar first came out, all emeralds went and bought projectors to hook to their laptops to show the plan on in group meetings, at 2,000 - 4,000 each. Then they realized this wasn't something everyone could do, so they came out with large flip charts (100.00 per), and the projectors sat. I bought a laptop (the Corp ran a promo for Gateway laptops) for 1,000., which I continue to use. Many did this - the bigger pins were expected to.

Given what is going on with the IRS and the potential fallout from yours and Ruth's excellent websites (I have met Ted Fish - what a dirtbag! - I can easily believe he would line his pockets with Sun AM offerings), I would rather not disclose my tax records, other than to say that there certainly were losses that were significant. I know for a fact that lax record keeping is the norm in the business (our emerald was real bad at finances), and this is obviously deliberate. If people kept good records, they would see the truth quickly, if not deluded by the 'dream'. For your info, I will approximate what the costs of business were in my line of sponsorship:

Tape of week, and TOW +1 = 6.00 each + 11% (sales tax and handling - what a ripoff) = 13.32 per week

Book of month - varies - 11.00 to 25.00 + 11%

Video of month - 16.50 - 19.00 + 11%

Amvox 10.00 - 35.00 per month

Open meeting (5.00 per distributor) - don't forget meals afterwards.

Your upline's training sessions - gen 5.00 per person. Remember, they want to have a function not less often than every 2 weeks. Get around the fire!

Monthly function - generally 12.00 per person, + meals at breaks - held 6 times yr

Bigger function - gen 18.00 - 75.00 per person, + ,meals - held 4 times year.

Dream weekend (or Winter E-conference) - 500.00 per couple, + meals, + whatever else (tools that are pushed on you at the meeting)

Summer E-conference - same as above. We drove to these meetings, so add gas expense.

Your diamonds own website - 10.00 per month

the above does not include other special meetings that come up -
or promotions, or other tools - Dexter is always changing/adding tools, but not as often as our upline Double diamond did. And you cannot complain about it - just go along and buy it, or you are disloyal. When you add up the above, it still is not HUGE expense, compared to a comparable traditional business (this is drummed into your head!), but it does not include all expense, such as gas, wear on cars; the fact is that you can make more per hour working at minimum wage. The problem remains that the business is not a money making proposition until you hit a big pin and start getting significant system money. Amway/Quixtar just doesn't pay that well. Thank God I am no longer running the roads until 2-3am with gas 1.85/gal.

By the way, did you know that QuixSource was 'amicably shut down'? This had some real potential to cut into the AMO's business. Go to www.quixsource.com - what a shame! This was a professionally done site with reasonable prices for support materials, without the crap. Not surprising though, since the IBOAI has so much power with the Corp. Tail wags dog, except in this case both are dogs!

Gee, I have so many other thoughts. I have read Steve Hassan's book Combatting Cult Mind Control since I wrote you last - you would swear that Dexter and the diamonds were who he was specifically writing about. Amazing - and scary as hell.

Case #2

Dear Mr. Larsen:

I congratulate you on your very informative web- site about the Amway business and the deceptive practices of their motivational organizations.

My wife and I were active I.B.O.s in Dexter Yager's group for 8 years in the 90's. We qualified as P.S.D.D. after 4 years and then watched our business fall well below the 7500 point level in spite of our continued investment and hard work. I was curious to see, however, that in spite of the serious reduction of consumable products going through our business we were still doing a brisk trade in business support materials and function tickets for some time.

About a year ago we became computer/Internet literate in order to participate in the Quixtar business. We soon discovered the exposures on the net of the pyramiding in B.S.M.s (mainly tapes) and function tickets that provides the Emeralds and Diamonds with the lion's share of their income. We could see that the evidence of this illegal and unethical practice was overwhelming and soon disassociated ourselves from 'the system'.

Like most people in this business we would never have become involved if we had known about this insidious hidden agenda. We now feel we should warn others about the true nature of the Amway-Quixtar Motivational Organizations.

I have thrown out hundreds of tapes but still have some tapes and videos left that I am willing to send to you. I believe you can use them to expose the deceptions and outright falsehoods that are used to dupe people into investing their time and money into this venture, which I believe has become the biggest money scam of modern times.

I have composed an article for a Christian journal that exposes the cultic nature of the AMQUIX business and shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dexter Yager is disobeying the directives of the bible he likes to quote so much. I would like to send this article to you so you could consider posting it on your web-site. I believe it would convince many Christians and others that they should have serious second thoughts about doing this business.

Sincerely,

A.M. The Golden Calf by A.M.

Case 3

From the www.getfacts.com message board. December 2000

 To Mad Hatter: Your 12-9 post was wonderful. Since we stopped building "THE BUSINESS", I have had a very hard time expressing myself about how horrible it is. We were directs, we received tool bonuses, we paid out tool bonuses even if the directs under us didn't requalify, we went to everything. One problem with myself and my husband was that we had our own opinions. We were not permitted to speak because they were afraid I would be blatantly honest. Then they decided that we were bad and should not receive a tool bonus anymore, that was because I would not sign a paper our upline diamond had made up. I wouldn't sign it because I called rules and regulations and they told me that they could not do that to us. So they all got very angry because I called and I went with what Amway rules and regulations said was told that they don't know what they're talking about because they are behind desks they are not out building a business. At this point my husband and I felt like we had bosses so we stopped building and running and went back to our normal wonderful lives. Believe this or not, but after not being involved for the past 2 years, our sponsors are now receiving our bonus check. We renewed every year just so they couldn't get our bonus. They have somehow, someway succeeded to do this. It amazes me that the WILSON, HAUGEN, ANDERSON organization has been thinking of us for this long. They must really LOVE us, don't you think!>>>>>> If you have any info on this happening to someone else, I would love to hear about it.{the bonus check}.My last statement stated that our sponsors will receive it and It's up to them to pay us. Go figure! I still am amazed at the things they have done to us & when I try to explain, it just all comes out at once and I don't even understand myself. I probably need a few more years and reading sites like this before I can be somewhat normal again. Thanks again

Rose
Rose,

4.22 Retail Sales Rule: In order to obtain the right to earn a Performance Bonus during a given month, an IBO must make not less than one sale TO EACH OF 10 DIFFERENT RETAIL CUSTOMERS (e.g., Members or Clients) OR HAVE AT LEAST 50 PV OF SALES TO ANY NUMBER OF RETAIL CUSTOMERS (e.g., Members or Clients) that month, and upon request, produce proof of such sales.

Your upline is playing hardball with you on your Performance bonuses. Also, they may be using the argument that you are no longer motivating and supporting your downline and are therefore no longer entitled to bonus.

Just a thought.

Case 4

From a Inside The WEB Quixtar Message Board

Two-bits from a recently "retired" Direct.

I am a former direct who has been in the business for five years, and has recently "woken up" to the way the system really works. We sponsored 21 personal legs, were totally plugged into the Britt System, and did the 8 steps consistently for four years straight (with upline counsel from our ruby and then our EDC). The highest PV we hit was 8600, but we held over 4000 PV (18 to 23 S/O) for two years over eight bonus checks, with other sub-100 PV legs. We did everything we were told, were paraded across stage as the "next emeralds" in our upline EDC's business, and were always very excited about the business until the last few months.

I can verify what the Mad Hatter is saying is absolutely true- my upline showed me a graph of typical "Britt System" income versus Amway income. At emerald, the "System" income slightly exceeds the Amway income, and at Diamond, the "System" income is about 80% of your total income. At EDC and above, your Amway income is negligible compared to your "System" income. Even many Directs are still somewhat in the dark about this, but given how close I was to our upline EDC, he let me in on this, thinking it would "fire me up". Instead, it makes me sick- he misjudged me by figuring I was as blind to right and wrong as he apparently is, I guess. I was in shock! I couldn't believe my hero was telling me this! I feel like the "System" is raping people now, and I can't continue to build "the business".

Diamonds make ridiculous income from tapes, books, functions, opens and rallies. Function income can be hundreds of thousands per function per Diamond- do the math at FED some time, and ask yourself, "Where are they spending all of the ticket money? Does the Colliseum really cost $1 million to $2 million for this weekend?

The main thing that newer IBO's should be aware of is that the average Direct doesn't make any profit after "System" expenses. When you have your "Hair pinned back and ears on fire" doing distance groups on weekends and going to everything and then some like my wife and I have been, the business will cost you from $1500 to $2500 per month. The "average" Direct (Platinum) makes only about $1200 or so per month (not $2600 like they show you). So you lose at least $1000 a month at Direct if you're building it big-time.

The Q12 level is about break-even. You might show a net profit of $10k per year at Q12, since most Q12s have pretty decent structure. But then, most Q12s go four to five nights a week and work distance groups, so that is expensive.
Anyhow, we showed losses on our income tax returns of nearly $60,000 over five years due to being so "plugged in". We "paid the price" all right, and all we did was lose money. We did meet a lot of great people and make great friends, and even learned a thing or two about working with people, but it certainly isn't a good business for people to make money in. Even if you go Diamond and make bags of money, are you willing to rape people financially? Think about it. Hey, I went three to four nights a week (check my calendar) for four years, and that's what I got, and my upline claimed in front of a seminar and rally in HIS group that my wife and I would be his "biggest leg". He already has four Diamonds downline. Think about it, you "Team Players". What can you expect? Kinda disturbing, huh?

-"Fired Up"

Case 5

Hi Scott:

Thanks for your contribution in making available such a site. I wish your perspective was available back in '86. As a former Gold DD I found simply that this was not my passion. In fact I will credit the business with allowing me to understand that in order to attain the higher levels of achievement, you must become passionate about the endeavor. I credit the business with many understandings that have affected my being in a positive way.

There were two things that stood out to me that helped decide my exit from active participation (I am still a distributor) after five years and a Direct Distributorship. Being young, 21, when I signed, I was still learning of my interests and direction. It soon became clear that I preferred to function independently in my work. I became tired of the clone mentality. The "Amwayspeak" drove me up the wall. Second was a line from "The Godfather Part III": "When you build on people you build on sand." I felt this was the case here.

Amway was a great experience for me. It just turned out not to be my cup of tea!

There are positives and negatives in all of life, it's important to get an understanding of both sides to have good judgment. Thanks for helping to accomplish that.

Robert

Case 6

 Scott:

How are you?

I am (was) an Emerald. Highly exalted; tapes out and the whole shebang. We quit! I will take some time to tell the whole story, but essentially, tools, upline domination & mafia tactics, etc. drove us out.

I will get back to you. I was going to bed 2 hours ago, when I chanced onto your site.

Thanks.

Dale Windle

Formerly qualified Emerald

Now qualified Platinum (barely, and declining...)

Hi Scott:

Hey - I was totally captivated by your site. I was an Emerald in the Ken Stewart, Bill Childers, Gooch, Yager line.

We went Emerald in 2 1/2 years and in many ways had an excellent experience, that ultimately turned sour as we watched the house of cards collapse, with divorces in the upline (Stewart & Childers), the enlightening experience of the BSM Mafia attacks and rejection by the upline when we passed them & went of to the Caribbean to fulfill our dreams.

I'll sit down and write the whole story, the good and the bad over the next little while, but for now I just wanted to say HI!

We talked last night my wife & I and yes - at our "peak, we made about $100,000 CDN in income, about $20,000 of that was Amway bonus money, the balance tapes, books, functions, rallies, etc. Of that we had reinvest about $70,000 to keep the momentum going, which left us with about $40,000 to live on. Fortunately, some excellent creative accounting from our accountants helped us to pay very low taxes on this, so we basically had an extra 60 hour a week "part time" business that really didn't work the way it was envisioned.

WE even had our own tape GCS45 for about 2 years - it was a hot seller!

Which means that some one, not us, made a lot of money on it. It was a go-getter tape in the entire Gooch, Childers, Stewart organization AND in several other Yager lines (Michaels, etc.). We got our $1 on only the tapes we sold.

We met them all, our story & photo album looks a lot like that of Jeff Probst, who we knew a bit as they were a sister Stewart leg. We sat together often at functions. I also knew well: Ken Kelm (The Schmitz suit) and many other Emeralds and Diamonds. I have sat in an Emerald meeting and listened to "our leader" impose new rules regarding "function bonus" payment, function bonus qualification, tape supply routes, tape over ride pricing, etc. many, many, many times. It was really a dictatorship enforced with Mafia-like enthusiasm and tactics to ensure total (silent) compliance with the new rules...

As I said, though in our first 5 years, we really had a truly excellent experience, we had the same prospecting tape, consistent tools and a steady tape "plan" to work with, then the upline started getting greedy, the advertising material changed almost monthly and we had to have "the latest", which was all that really worked.

When we left for the Caribbean in 1997 we had to throw out almost $15,000 of tapes which our upline would not buy back, even at a discount.

But more later. I'll start on our story and develop it nicely to show what it was like when it was good and how it all changed.

Thanks for your courage.

Dale Windle.

Q: $20,000 in Amway bonus seems very low. Is this a mistake? I can' believe the system paid 4x over Amway for a bonus.

Nope - that's right.

Most months AT THE EMERALD LEVEL we never made even $2,000 per month described in the SA-4400 Sales & Marketing Plan. We would have qualified the year before as an Emerald, had 2 legs requlaifying and with the emphasis on depth (which pays tool money) we had little width and therefore never carried 7500 personal PV and therefore, Grossed about $1,500 a month CANADIAN from Amway and didn't get a PAR (Q-12) bonus either.

BUT< as "Emeralds" we got Emerald level price breaks on tools, then add "function bonuses" for attendance at functions and seminar & rally income as well as tapes, books, tools, advertising tapes, etc. and we made as much as 4xs our Amway income for a couple of years.

Not a mistake. We just were thankful that we had a tool income, or how else would we afford to drive 2 Cadillacs the when we started in the business we really didn't want, but by the time we reached Emerald we couldn't live without!

Dale.

Hi Scott, I was a founders platinum, q-12 , whatever you want to call it for ten years.. Came close to Emerald with some promos but never got over the top. At best moved 120 SOT I and 90 SOT II, 130 at Major Functions, made $2000 a month a few times. Enclosed is a very conservative estimate of my overhead. Hope you can use it.

Amway/Quixtar Business Expenses

SOT I $6 per week X 52 weeks = $312

SOT II $6 per week X 52 weeks = $312

BOM $20 avg. per month X 12 months = $240

Opens $10 per couple X 24 per year = $240

BBS's $30 per couple X 6 per year = $180

Functions $600 per couple X 4 per year = $2400

Ad-packs $10 per pack X 20 per year = $200

Follow up $20 per pack X 20 per year = $400

Mileage $.32 per mile X 20,000 per year = $6400

Motels $60(avg.) X 24 per year = $1440

Food (road) $30 per day X 50 per year = $1500

Babysitting $25 per evening X 50 per year = $1250

Voicemail $17 per month X 12 months = $204

Web (upline) $10 per month X 12 months = $120

Shipping $100 per month X 12 months = $1200

Preview Pack $ 50 per month X 12 months = $600

 

TOTAL----------------------------------------------------------$16,998

Case 8

Thanks so much for your web page. I was in the business for 7 years and was the 1st to be in Mexico when it first started.The question I ask myself is why I stayed that long. Loalty to my upline emerald direct I suppose. The frustration of seeing ibo's not making any $ but yes spending on tools, system. I was personally sponsored by a friend who went emerald and my wife and I were profit sharing directs. I could tell you story after story about the lives of people loosing more than making anything. Not just the money part but also the friendships that were destroyed due to the systems propaganda to disassociate from those that would quit the system. I have no one to blame but myself for not seeing the truth earlier. Now get this, I said we were in 7 years and we were loyal to the system, attending every meeting locally, out of town ect. ect. One thing I have come to understand is that it true that the scripture that says that the heart is deceitful and who can know it After realizing what was going on we were cast out from our upline when we question the system. Louie C refuses to accept the fact that in order to be successful as he is you better spend allot of money at the cost of others to make money at Diamond and above. I could go on but I know your time is swamped with ibo's like myself. Thanks Joseph

Case 9

I wish that I had been able to read this business analysis report before I became an Amway IBO in 92. I went to every meeting for four years and lost so much money that the IRS audited me for those years! This report will be very informative for those that are considering becoming Amway Distributors. I have sent your hyperlink to my son who also used to be in Amway.

I had at least twenty boxes of tapes and a dozen profile books that I sold back to my up line emerald for ten cents on the dollar. I did learn a lot of people skills during my time in Amway. If I had it to do it over, I would just purchase the motivational material and save all of the Amway costs.

Scott, you will save a lot of people more money than most people could imagine! I congratulate you. I like the concept of mlm. If I ever start a mlm company. I would love to hire you to analyze the plan. I was really impressed with your ability to give such an accurate appraisal of the situation.

Best regards, Larry. (Former direct level in Amway)

Case 10

 

Scott,

I'm really impressed with your site. Here's a little of our story.

I was approached in early 1991 by this guy I went to high school with. He was the biggest jerk in the school and I really did not like this guy. Well, he was like the nicest person in the world all of a sudden. What a difference 10 years made. Guess what he wanted to show my family and I. No thanks.

Six months later, my wife's best bud from high school came to our house with her Dr. husband and showed her the plan. My wife decided to get in. I was against the business but eventually decided to support her. We made it to Ruby and then Pearl. It took us about three years. We sponsored a lot of people but it would not have happened with out the "REACH" order. Our upline sponsors were Emeralds when we got in and went Diamond.

There is a book load from there to now but it is all already on your website. I know of people who sold their home to reach a pin level :(.

I had so much inside info I could not possibly sponsor or bring anyone else into this corrupt system. I built the business with passion until I had to face the truth and now am shunned by the amdroids. It is all about the money and nothing else.

Don't feel sorry for me. My marriage is great. I have 4 beautiful children that I am spending quality time with now not later ( My upline diamonds kids are in therapy) .My traditional business is booming.

We lost the friends and family we sponsored into the business. When they quit we shunned them and now we are shunned by the ones who remain "LOYAL TO THE SYSTEM". Now we have real relationships with our new friends. We spend time together at the river, desert, or the beach because we like one another, not because we want them in our business.

I have a lot of respect for Amway. I believe they are golden. The problem in my opinion is the greed in the line of sponsorships. Again, I have seen these with my own eyes.

If you quit drinking or gambling because you are addicted, are you still labeled a quitter? This is as bad as any vice I have ever seen: using God, love or friendship to steal people's money.

Thanks for all you do

Dave in San Diego

P.S. As I write to you, my sponsor who hasn't qualified as diamond for years has intercepted our PV Bonus and is trying to steal our downline. Guess they need the money.

Case 11

Hi Scott,

I came across your Web site today and I found it extremely informative and interesting. My wife and I were in Yager/Don Storms organization from 1993 to 1998 and we had achieved the Gold Producer level in the business. We found ourselves not building our dream business but helped building our uplines' tool business. I was "too smart" for the business so I was called the loser since then. But life has been great since we left the business. Right now my wife is full-time at home and I am in the IT consulting industry making way over what we used to make combined in Amway.

It took my wife and I three years to reach 7500PV and we stayed at that level for 3 months. During those 3 months after we paid out downlines, we kept about $2000 each month from Amway. We had 5 legs (one 4000PV, one 2500PV, two 1000PV and some side sales volume). People we brought in were slow but very loyal professional. We still invested in tapes, books, functions, phone calls, ad-packs, car miles and product inventories. It is true that being a silver or gold is broke financially.

Our business volume was like a yo-yo, it was down, down, up, down for a long time and even after we went direct it fell because of lost momentum. During the bad months, I think after pay-outs we received about $300 to $500 from Amway then we paid for tapes, books, functions and miles. Our monthly expenses were about $500 and that did not count the special functions costs that came up once every few months.

When my son was born, we had an additional $200 to $300 dollars baby-sitting fees. So I think unless you are a Ruby or Emerald in the business, it is not possible to be profitable.

I hope our experience help. Keep up the good work.

Case 12

I'm a ten year Amway Dist/IBO who has been in conflict with our sponsors (Platinums) and Diamond after our sponsors called our personals and offered servicing around us (Aug. 1999). The reason was because we stopped buying Standing Order and going to functions... we were stranded with about $4,000 in inventory and $2,000 in tapes etc. At the time we were Directs out of qualification for 2 years.... paying 5 Bonus checks, 9 legs, running 2500-4000 PV a month. Once we got off the system we started to make $300-$500 per month, but then our upline wanted a piece of our business.

We are in the WWDB system. We spent 7 months trying to negotiate a servicing contract (see rules) that didn't have a "get back in the system, quit or sign your business over to us" clause in it. During this time the upline Platinum which illegally took over servicing without a servicing agreement started deducting a servicing fee for servicing because we refused to sign their servicing agreement as presented. Eventually it added up to @$4,000 deducted before Amway said "you must sign an agreement or service" (Amway was no help and backed the Platinum fully in spite of the Platinum breaking every rule AND we had to defend ourselves against false complaints against us by our sponsors because we didn't role over and give them our business).

We resumed servicing and it then took us another 7 months to get the $4,000 they stole from us repaid. The check came from Quixtar (Amway) not the people who stole it. In order to "qualify for our servicing fees illegally deducted the Platinums implemented the "Retail Sales Rule" to try and avoid payment.... (GEE WHIZ it was the first time in ten years I'd actually been asked to prove retail sales. No problem because we did retail (one of the few). I used to teach and encourage people to hold their people accountable to the "Retail Sales Rule" but not because my upline taught me.)
When we resumed servicing we were put on cash (because they couldn't trust us they said) Our Warehouse Ordering was cancelled (we can't order off of Quixtar either without Warehouse Authorization)
We were treated like crooks and we didn't do anything wrong.

These are the people we worked our asses off to make Emeralds. Thank you very much. Our sponsors have lied to our downline, lied to our upline and broken Amway's rules, broken WWDB's cardinal rules and all with the apparent blessing of Amway and upline Diamonds. They are nothing short of shameless and they have deluded themselves to think they are entitled to steal businesses away from their downline, after all it's what our EDC has bragged about and our Emerald is probably mad because he didn't get away with it like his upline has.

We were Directs and took our leadership seriously and ethically. Your site was a revelation but no surprise. We have felt uncomfortable with much within the system shortly after being Directs.

Just heard from a cross-line that he renewed late and his sponsor (same Platinum as us) wrote to Amway and had him renewed without group. His group was three legs plus a Sapphire in width. He only found this out when his downline called him and told him he wasn't his sponsor anymore. When he confronted our Platinum he was told by the Platinum that the Platinum was doing him a favor! Ten years of being gung-ho, "fired up", attending functions, being positive and a nice guy. This guy was told by our Diamond it was his fault for renewing late and the Platinum was just clearing the "deadwood". In the end IBOs do not own their business until they are direct and stay direct. You upline controls your business until then.


Leadership just ended (no I wasn't there!). They changed formats. There used to be individual Diamond leaderships, now they grouped them into 4-5 in all WWDB. No Platinums spoke only Diamonds. Guess that means there are no Platinums. FED last year I hear there was only one new Diamond (I think from outside WWDB). Huge drop in numbers and no growth and lots of Diamonds and Emeralds out of qualification.

Case 13

Scott,

I am exhausted emotionally after reading the postings on your site. They mirror our own experiences and we could add even more. I don't have the energy to do it right now, but I will write to you again. Please do not publish my e-mail address or name. I've had enough grief from the "leaders" we used to associate with regarding our decision to quit building the business because of the dishonesty and lack of integrity we have observed over the years. I don't need anymore harrassment from them via e-mail.

We have been Directs/Founders Directs for the last 9 years. This will be our first year not to qualify; we no longer have the desire or energy to "keep building."

More later,

RED

Case 15

Scott,
I have done scan of your site - it is on the money. My wife and I went Profit Sharing DD / Q12 qualifier in 94 and 95. We made ok money - while putting several hundred distributorships (400+) in our organization. I drove the miles and did all the work for a ton of people - and I can proudly say that I was very good at what I did. I did many open/hotel meetings with 250+ people in attendence and we spoke at functions. Everyone thought we were the next Emerald couple (and we came very close). Hourly - our profit was "squat". Six nights per week with late night coffee sessions - building up a bunch of "wanna-be's". I had young kids at home (babies) but I was out of town (100+ miles one way) every night. We are under one of Dexter's Diamonds.
BTW - I have been to Dexter's house and spent time with the man. I have also spent a lot of individual time with Diamonds. Once we made PSDD - more than 50% of our income came from "non-Amway Product" and speaking engagements. We had over 250 standing order tapes moving through our group on a weekly basis. We received $.75 per cassette tape and
$1.50 per video, plus $$$$ for every tool moving through our business. This was hush-hush, nobody knew except PSDD's and above. All the time our upline preached morality and Christianity. I admitt - I was suckered right into it all - I became a very good manipulator. I used God as way to keep people in - I saw their vulnerabilities and went for the jugular. It is very easy to use people, and I had an upline that taught me how - by example. I pulled away when I got sick of myself and "the Dream". Me real dream and ambition was to raise a family and be the best dad I could. Today I coach youth sports and do a ton of volunteer work with youth organizations. My wife, kids and I couldn't be any happier. My house is only 2500 sq f (not 25,000) - but I am at ease.

We still collect an OK check every month - in fact we are probably more profitable than ever. We still have two decent size groups - my upline and two of my downline directs hold it together while the downsizing caused by Quixtar keeps the sponsoring level at an all-time low. The PV doesn't come near what it once was - but I don't care anymore. Although the internet makes it easy to check up on the sponsoring without having to talk with my upline/downline. There was a time when I couldn't imagine not spending the rest of my life with these people - now I could care less. I do feel bad for a lot of them who need to stop but can't - it is addictive.

Case 16

Dear Scott,

I was a profit-sharing direct distributor in the Thornton Group (Diamond-Distributors in the Yager Organization). For 3 years, my wife and I put the miles on our vehicle and "showed the plan" We were dedicated to our group and honestly felt that we were helping people make a better life for themselves. Unfortunately, I began questioning the "morals" of the business. Our upline Diamonds consistently played head games with my wife and I and made us feel guilty if we did not "edify" them. What a Joke!! How can you edify someone who is not edifiable?? I can now say..looking back.. that the "system" is the most powerful form of "brain-washing" causing serious mental harm and anguish to the millions of ex-Amway soldiers. I personally had a nervous breakdown, which has taken me 2 1/2 years to get over. I thank God everyday for giving me the intuition to see the "real" side of the Amway business. I only wish I would have realized it 3 years sooner. A comment Birdie Yager once said has haunted me to this day and brings tears to my eyes when I think about it. Birdie said.. "Your children are older a lot longer than they are young, so don't feel bad about leaving them with babysitters while you build the business". What a crock!!

Children build their basic core morals and character when they are young. The influence we as parents have on our young ones is so powerful! I have a 16 year old son and 9 year daughter who I love with all my heart. I am making up for lost time and working on our bond.

I regret the many people who lost so much because of me. I calculated that I have lost over 1.5 million dollars in my private chiropractic practice due to my active and dedicated participation in the Amway business.

For the last year, I am gaining back my health and am working on my masters degree in clinical nutrition and love every minute of it. I am really helping people and I believe making a difference in their lives.

Take Care!

Ronald

Case 17

Scott,

Thank you so much for your site. It was the catalyst/confirmation that caused my husband and I to decide to stay home with our small children NOW rather than waiting until had "freedom" by "going Diamond".

Briefly about us, and then my question: We got started in the business in 1997 and became Silver Directs 12/99. We would have qualified as Gold Directs in 2/00, but we unfortunately took over 100 people to Gooch Free Enterprise (now commonly referred to "Republican church") at the beginning of that month. Well over half left early Friday night and did not come back.

I believe that event was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for my upline Diamonds as well, because by June they were preparing the Directs for an eminent split from Pronet. As it was told to us and eventually promoted to the entire group, several Diamonds were working with Alticor to develop a new system that would give pv/bv to tools, as well as other changes in the system (fewer opens, only one weekend convention per year, etc). They called themselves the Roundtable Alliance and included Andy Andrews, Bo Short, Barry Joye, Tom Redmond, Chuck Vogt and others.

At our October 2000 BBS, Andy Andrews asked the host Diamonds if he could be "transparent" and proceeded to admit, among other things, that the main problem with the "negative" sites on the web is "that they are 95% true!" Everyone in the auditorium was whipped into a frenzy and eagerly prepared to leave Pronet and the rest of the "evil" AQMO's in the dust.

Well... at the November 2000 BBS, our upline Diamond excused the speakers at intermission and took the stage to tell us - quite nervously and inexpertly - that "we (were) back with Pronet and we( were) discontinuing Amvox in favor of a state of the art system called Genie. Goodnight." (He said a bit more than that, but not much. The meeting was over in 15 minutes.)

Finally - to my question: Have you heard the real story about the Roundtable Alliance and the reason for their demise? And what about the Diamonds involved - Andrews, Short, Vogt, etc.?

I've been so curious about this. Local rumor has it that our immediate upline Diamond has pulled completely out of the business. Thanks in advance for any information you may be able to provide.

Case 18

Hey Scott,

I love your site. All is true. I was ruby in the Britt org. for several years. I saw the light in 1999 and could no longer be part of it. My wife is still very active and is going to be rich any day now... ha-ha. We separated in 2000 and are now in divorce proceedings. She could not stay married to loser who did not love his wife and kids enough to build Quixtar.... We were together for 15 years, got two kids, but chose the business over me. So many people in our own group started having marriage problems after getting in the business. When wives are told their husbands don't love them if Quixtar is not built or told to stop having sex with husbands unless you show so many plans per week or something , bad things can only happen. Now being on the outside looking in, I see how powerful mind control can be. All is clear now and I am moving on in life. Many Quixtar couples are living lives of desperation behind closed doors. Keep putting the word out, you are truly doing a great work giving people the true facts about Quixtar. I hope no one else has to lose what I did before they figure it all out

Case 19

Dexter and Birdie Yager were our directs when we got in 5 in depth. Some 22 years have passed; we are inactive for the last 12. What you write and what we have seen and personally experienced are/is the truth, we reached the profit sharing direct level, but the butt kissing and the backstabbing bs, and the political debauchery and blind following the blind, oh work for us at the functions for free type of mentality is unfortunately showing the worst side of our human weaknesses. We were young and hopeful and swallowed the "whole story ", hook, line and sinker. We've been with the largest pins in the world and for those that have built their businesses, God Bless them, but it truly leaves so much to be desired. I salute you for you hard work and determination to take the stand you have, and know that it is always easier to sleep at night when our hearts and minds are clear. There is so much emotion and feelings and frustrations over so much of our lives, all I can say now, is that my wife and I are still together after all these years and our children love us. Regardless that I was counseled to divorce my wife because she wasn't committed, I was in my heart building the business to give her a better life, and why would I want to get rid of someone who truly did and does "love" me, not like the Houdini's in Amway who love money and use people, contrary to teaching to love people and use money. Thanks for stirring up in me some long dormant feelings and giving me an opportunity to post my thoughts. I am "free" in Christ Jesus! Because the truth sets us free indeed. You are the man! ps we recently celebrated 27 years of marriage. And I am only 48. Not too bad, eh? Lots of diamonds had there marriages together, but my oh my, the love of money is evil, and greed destroys many.

 

Case 20

 Hi Scott.

I'm an inactive Founder's Platinum (now just Platinum). I've been fascinated with all the info. on your site, and I agree most with the descriptions and analysis of the Australian IBO who goes into depth about the religious connotations. Thanks for putting it together and keeping it together. I've moved on and have 13 years of pain and anguish in my story from being in the Goetschel organization.

Chuck Goetschel and his dad Charlie (an unqualified "Emerald") are down line from Dan Williams incidentally, but there is an Emerald between Dan and The Goetschels who Chuck broke away from and I'm sure is not in on the tremendous tool and function profits. That's Gene and Ann Langile, in Oakland, CA. Goetschels are in South Orange County, CA.

The reason I'm writing is because there was a very big scandal (one of MANY scandals - several other Platinums and at least one Sapphire have left Goetschel who has alienated them all, ourselves included) in the Goetschel organization over the last two years involving Hal and Harriet Lyons, who purportedly went Diamond, then got terminated by Quixtar six months later for fraud. You may wish to add them to your list and look into the story.

I have a down-line "Emerald" who was totally disloyal to me and whom my up line Diamond went around me to work with. They're carrying on the big lie at each and every function and my left-over group is dwindling. We were also black-balled for pointing out unethical and unjust behavior and policies within our organization. Many, many sad stories, but wanted you to know about the Lyons. That could be in interesting couple for you to investigate.

Hal and Harriet Lynos went Ruby probably in 2000. It was probably just a one-month flash in the pan situation. But I remember them getting recognized for Ruby and everyone thought they were going to hit Emerald and all of a sudden, Chuck brought them up on stage as new Diamonds. Everyone was like, "huh"?!

On the Team5000 web site there were all kinds of pictures with Chuck and Colleen and Hal and Harriet with all the famous Diamonds at Diamond club, Hawaii, in Australia, etc. Hal with Burt Gulick, Harriet with Dan Williams on the golf course, absolute fame by association. We were SO JEALOUS (right). These were posted for months on our team web site, but then promptly taken down when the scandal occurred. The other bizarre end of the story is that Chuck never said anything publicly. People started asking each other, "Where's Hal and Harriet?" Even their own group was asking! Chuck just buried it and pretended like it never happened! He was so horrible with these transitions and scandals.

I don't think we have any pictures of these guys, just their "Diamond tape" - "The 34-Foot Tower" in reference to Hal's days as a Paratrooper and the business. We can probably find this tape if we dig through our archives, but it could take a few days. We'll see what we can find.

People have seen Harriet at the local tennis club and has heard Harriet telling fellow tennis partners that Quixtar kept her bonus checks and that no one was making any money except Chuck and that Chuck was keeping her money too (tools profits, I assume). Chuck cut us off of our monthly tools profits the second we showed disinterest in him running every aspect of our lives. This amounted to a few hundred dollars a month, at the most. If we didn't kiss his feet and call him literally every day and report in, we would be in massive trouble. His tactics are also Nazi-like and game playing and with a Master's in Counseling Psychology, I have seen the cultish environment from the beginning. Chuck even made his office assistant work the same day she delivered her daughter, while in the hospital. It's neurotic.

I could go on. One last thing that broke us completely away was chuck and Colleen's bizarre behavior regarding her singing "talent". Colleen was put on stage to sing at literally every function we had in every month, including major functions. There's no better way to say it. . . She absolutely SUCKS! In their minds and the minds of the brain-washed, she's the next Whitney Huston. She's horribly off-key and has a terrible time controlling her transitions, pitch and voice control. But since she's "naturally so good", she could NEVER need voice lessons! So Colleen and Chuck set off the fulfill one of her biggest dreams - to record her own C.D.! Yes, that's right, it's called "Colleen G." Original, huh? So this C.D. recording idea was taken to many a recording studio and outright refused as soon as they heard her voice. They were laughed out the door everywhere they went! So they refused to hear "no" and coerced a couple in their down line, Andy and Mary Kate Kirby, to do the recording using their own music and studio connections.

Andy and Mary Kate were blown out of the business by their own up-line Platinums, Bow and Coreen Lemp, who would take a bullet for Chuck and Colleen. There are only about three couples who would literally walk over a cliff without question or sacrifice a child at the stake, if Chuck told them to, and sadly, hardly ANY of them have made any money in 13 years, only sacrificed their time with their families and given their energy and resources to the "team". So, these guys got access to a recording studio and put together the music to the stupid, predictable same songs you hear at every function, The Power of the Dream, One Moment in Time, etc. Colleen recorded for her debut C.D., so that she could become famous a total of 7 songs. Get this: the clincher is that she made these C.D.'s (1,000 of them), to sell at all our functions. The songs are HORRIBLE. She's is totally off pitch on most of them and it's just plain painful to hear them! So they announce that the C.D's are available and that certain P. V. qualifiers will be able to come back into the room at the end of the night, and she will actually sign them! So everyone buys these C.D'.s at like $16.00 each. They only sold 200 of them in about six months, because when the word got out on how horrible they were no one was interested. We were reprimanded by Chuck because we weren't "promoting" the C.D.'s hard enough.

Colleen sang from stage at the end of each function and then she and Chuck promoted as hard as they could the C.D.'s and bent over backward to announce that the profits were going to "Make-a-wish" foundation, to further glorify themselves one more time. It was so pathetic. We have never seen such grandstanding. Absolutely pathetic, selfish grandstanding, but the final joke was on them because here are these C.D.'s circulating around and the idiots who play them claim that she sounds like Whitney Houston, and then their new IBO's hear them being played in their car and their told that they wake up to "Colleen G." and they look at them like they're from Mars!

We did hang on to one of these C.D.'s, if you'd like a listen. Could be some good entertainment for the web site, but I don't know if you want to go that far. Over a couple of years now, they've only sold like 300 of them and they were sure she'd sell millions! Finally, we were told by Andy Kirby who engineered the C.D.'s (now to his huge regret), that Chuck intimidated him and tried to force him to Not list the artists who originally wrote the music that she used to sing to. Chuck did not want anyone's name on the C.D. except for Colleen, even willing to break copy-write laws for he and his wife's pathetic egos! We've got this one copy and we don't see any credit given to the artists who wrote the music, only Colleen G.

Andy told us he couldn't do that and that it was highly illegal, but Chuck insisted, so I don't know what came of that.

There are many more similar stories to tell, all beginning and ending with control issues, serious anger management problems with Chuck that we were the victims and witnesses of multiple times, our ultimately being blackballed. We were so stinking burned out and tired of the absolute neurotic, cult organization Chuck has inspired and run. It is so wrong and unhealthy and anti-biblical. I feel very sorry for our remaining group of a few hundred IBO's and their wasted lives in this environment. It is so wrong.

Thank you for letting us vent. Keep the site going strong. We love it. We prefer to keep ourselves anonymous, as we don't have energy or money for the harassment we feel would be applied to us by Chuck if he chooses to come after us. But we have no problem with the exposure of these incidents and hope that it's ultimately uncovered for the masses to see. As I said we have first-hand knowledge of MANY more problems and misdeeds to do with Chuck Goetschel, many of which happened to our cross-line friends, some of whom are Sapphire today and have been run out for being gay and lesbian. It goes on and on and on. . . . thanks again.

Case 21

It's been 7 years since I've realized the error of my ways. I guess it is human nature to find someone to commiserate with...but on second thought, and in hindsight, it was a blessing in disguise. I was in Amway for 5 years and was quite successful at it....so I thought. I went direct in less than a year and broke over 10 directs in 2 legs the following. In fact, I can boast of being the only DD with several tapes out (probably still are). We (my wife) were favorite speakers in the circuit at one point. I guess being bilingual helped. Yes, we spoke lots of times in Mexico. The year we were in qualification for sapphire (was Pearl but they took that away!) when my "UPLINES" decided to launch an attack against me. They started selling tools behind my back (that precluded me from getting the tool bonus) and discrediting me to my organization. What were they thinking? They totally went against their own teaching! They were successful at it but eventually...since I was the "magic", and without us, the group fell apart!!!

I guess it just doesn't happen amongst the diamonds....wow, the number of suits are growing. Even at the lower level like I found myself in....my upline Emerald was threatened by me (could've been greedy) and he was I guess desperate to get the tool bonus by himself and made sure I didn't get to Sapphire so I couldn't get the seminar/rally bonuses. Yes, at one point, my income from the tools was over $4,000/month, while my income from Amway was always less than $2,000. Go figure! That's when this light came on and I realized what it was really about. Eventually, the total of both incomes didn't come close to replacing my income....trust me I waited. My conscience bothered me that I was making money out of lying to people.

I'm just glad and somewhat greatful to my upline for "forcing me out." That was a blessing in disguise. I would hate to think what would have happened to my career if I continued pursuing this non-sense. So where ever you are, it is never too late to QUIT!

 

 

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